Fire Brigade Cross second class

[Silesien]

The red-orange flames are enamel of course & they (along with the white enamel & black enamel colors ), do not oxidize when exposed to the air, - I'm talking about all parts that are having silver finish, not the enamel colors. The silver lines around the flames are not silver enamel, they are thin silver edge-outlining, so they will darker with age. The same is true for the silver outlining of the swastika, & the silver outlining of the black ring around it; they are silver not silver enamel, & they will darken. It appears that the other Cross posted, with the ribbon, doesn't have much oxidation at all to the silver portions, it may have spent alot of time in its presentation case.

[Darrell]

Well, whatever, it would be nice to see a brighter picture of the obverse before I'd throw it away. Then again, with the swastika disk gone, it has lost much of it's value.

[Silesien]

I agree, the value is in the toilet, except for something neat maybe for a Fireman to wear on a chain. Maybe if it was mine I'd give it to the Fire Chief of Chesterland, Ohio, who is a very good friend. Or else,- I'd give him $5 for it, because I have an old original swastika disc for it; the correct one.

[hi-revr]

color

If the color is a darker red I would still like for someone to explain why this makes it a repro? I'm not at all being argumentative I'm looking for some answers that are qualified somehow and I don't know the answer to these. If we are going to say it is bad we need to answer the following;

1)How many known makers are there?

2)how many of this particular maker has anyone ever seen to compare to, dimensions and weight would seem a good comparison?

3)how difficult is it to reproduce red/orange enamels (original or repro)and keep color consistant from batch to batch and what happens to it over time? In other words if 20 other examples of this maker were all orange than that would make this suspicious.

[WARLORD]

One could go into a number of reasons why this is not original. First all Fire cross,s made at the time , to include the pin backed 1st class had the brick red enamel. This is easy to keep consistent. The glass for this was produced in large quanties, then ground, so the colour would be consistant. Reference the Mothers cross, produced in vast quanties. The enamle variation is very little. Next souval, produced these for a number of years. Known fact. The flames were darker red. Next, a bit cleverer was the use of the re issue 1957 type. Exactly the same as the TR form, minus the swastike. The fakers made the center swastika and applied it. This made a very good copy. They also invented variations by using othe fire crosses, that were similar and placing the center swastika on the cross. These were so convincing they fooled many experts in the late 70's when they turned up. Barry Smith was the seller of such pieces. He was from Horwich Lancs UK. One could go on with other lines but this is for a reference book.

[hi-revr]

One could go into a number of reasons why this is not original. First all Fire cross,s made at the time , to include the pin backed 1st class had the brick red enamel. This is easy to keep consistent. The glass for this was produced in large quanties, then ground, so the colour would be consistant. Reference the Mothers cross, produced in vast quanties. The enamle variation is very little. Next souval, produced these for a number of years. Known fact. The flames were darker red. Next, a bit cleverer was the use of the re issue 1957 type. Exactly the same as the TR form, minus the swastike. The fakers made the center swastika and applied it. This made a very good copy. They also invented variations by using othe fire crosses, that were similar and placing the center swastika on the cross. These were so convincing they fooled many experts in the late 70's when they turned up. Barry Smith was the seller of such pieces. He was from Horwich Lancs UK. One could go on with other lines but this is for a reference book.

Thanks for the reply. Did souval make them during the war only? Before and After or after only? Are they marked or have specific charectoristics?

Eric