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**Wim Vangossum** · 05-20-2011, 12:57 PM

Gary, proof works in two directions. It's also impossible to proof that a second die was made for a badge that was produced in a small time frame, and this with the name of a Gold Smith on its pinplate who technically never made the award in his little workshop (it is more likely he made only the design)

Now proof that it is a fake is also not easy. I guess the only way to determine that is when you can test the fire gilding like they did with some controversial Knight crosses and DKiG's. But personally I would not like to have it in my collection . I stick with the Fuess with the unique wreath and the uneven lettering.

Regards, Wim

**Gary Symonds** · 05-20-2011, 08:41 PM

Originally posted by Wim Vangossum View Post

Gary, proof works in two directions. It's also impossible to proof that a second die was made for a badge that was produced in a small time frame, and this with the name of a Gold Smith on its pinplate who technically never made the award in his little workshop (it is more likely he made only the design)

Now proof that it is a fake is also not easy. I guess the only way to determine that is when you can test the fire gilding like they did with some controversial Knight crosses and DKiG's. But personally I would not like to have it in my collection . I stick with the Fuess with the unique wreath and the uneven lettering.

Regards, Wim

Wim:
What your are saying is Fuess subcontracted these out the GPB for manufacture, which makes sense. It is not possible that there could have been a change of subcontractors in the 30s that would account for the differences?

In Fuess' other major work the Blood Order, we know that there was a change made in the second pattern w/o Joe's name. For reasons unkinown this could be some type of second pattern GPB using his name on the back plate.

I cannot agree these were produced for a "small time frame" The GPB was authorized in October 1933. It could have been produced unitl 1945. Do you have any evidence to prove a "small time frame".

If these badges were fire gilt would that be evidence of originality?

As to the wreath, both types of badges are identical. Smooth oakleaves, with no lines on the top. with the RR ties in the background.

The quality of these matches the one's with the spiked letters. In my opinion, the graphics are better on these.

**Wim Vangossum** · 05-21-2011, 06:48 AM

I think fire gilding can now be done in an safe industrial way. If you search on the net, you always find some companies who offers this technique for decorating furniture of old buildings etc...

A fellow collector researched Jos Fuess' participation both in the BO and GPB. Bottom line here is that Fuess never mentioned that he actually made these things by himself in his own little workshop. He had not the equipment to do that. If I remember it right he also went to Gahr for making the famous standarten?
The same mate did also a study after machine formed letters contra human hand made lettering on party pins and slogan badges. The original hand formed letters still have little flaws and charactersitics when magnified. The machine made lettering it too uniform and perfect. It's easy visible on a Nun Erst Recht Badge. But even the uniform looking letters of a standard RZM party pin still have their little flaws. The relative fat smooth and even
lettering on the so called Austrian fakes are different with this.

I thought the majority of these badges were made as soon as the badge was esthablished.

Regards, Wim

**Br. James** · 05-21-2011, 10:33 AM

Hi friends,

When the GPB was authorized in 1933, the list of those persons potentially eligible to qualify for the badge had closed at least five years earlier, when #100000 was assigned. While I don't believe we yet understand the details of how orders from Schwarz' office were placed with either of the two manufacturers of the GPB -- Deschler and whatever firm manufactured the badge bearing Josef Fuess' name -- I think it is safe to assume that the great majority of the badge orders were placed as the initial order, much the same way as the SA Standard Service Daggers bearing the Gruppe code on the reverse crossguard were part of an initial order in bulk. While GPBs (and SA daggers) continued to be ordered over the years ahead, the largest group of issued badges must have been from the initial orders. Later orders would have come through when someone broke his pin or lost his badge or wanted additional badges for any reason, etc. And if this assumption is true, then the look of the badges created from the initial orders would have been very close; badges ordered later on would have been produced in a more piecemeal fashion. Just an thought...!

Br. James

**ErichS** · 05-21-2011, 11:23 AM

BR. james, are you saying that the quaity or design may have changed as in the case of the said Fuess example in later years? I'm in the camp that there were no varations of these badges period.

**JoeW** · 05-21-2011, 11:29 AM

Originally posted by Br. James View Post

Hi friends,

When the GPB was authorized in 1933, the list of those persons potentially eligible to qualify for the badge had closed at least five years earlier, when #100000 was assigned. ......... Later orders would have come through when someone broke his pin or lost his badge or wanted additional badges for any reason, etc. And if this assumption is true, then the look of the badges created from the initial orders would have been very close; badges ordered later on would have been produced in a more piecemeal fashion. Just an thought...!
Br. James

Au contraire, perhaps the initial order from Schwarz's office included with the first procurement a stipulation of an additional fixed percentage as anticipated replacements or multiple requests? It would have been more economical to produce the over-supply in the first order rather than supply piecemeal later. This procurement procedure was used for other supplies.

**Jo Rivett** · 05-23-2011, 02:53 PM

Originally posted by Gary Symonds View Post

In Fuess' other major work the Blood Order,
I cannot agree these were produced for a "small time frame" The GPB was authorized in October 1933. It could have been produced unitl 1945. Do you have any evidence to prove a "small time frame".

Garry, if this is your opinion, then you can rule Josef Fueß as a "maker" of any item out after February 1935 straight away. He dropped out of the party and stopped working for and with them around this time.

If Josef Fueß Designed or made the GPB, he would have stated so in the interview he gave on the 20th February 1935, where he was asked to recall all of his activities within the NSDAP from 1920 until that date, (for the official NSDAP records) and everything he designed and made. He tells us exactly what he designed, and also what he actually made. He goes one step further and tells us what he was no able to make and therefor needed Gahrs help, of the help of Gahrs wife and his wife etc etc...
he tells us that he DESIGNED the Blood order, but does not say that he made it, which of course he did not being a master goldsmith.
he NEVER mentions the GPB once, either him designing it, or making it, which of course he would also have not, being a master goldsmith.

So the proof is there, loud and clear, it is documented what he made, the date when he made it, who asked him to make items, or who asked him to design items...why, who helped him etc etc, from mundane Party stickpins in September 1920 through to the Flags, armbands etc etc and he does NOT, he DOES NOT say anything about the GPB or making the blood order

So no more proof or opinions are needed, we have the facts, in black and white of what he made, from his own mouth ! (not quoted from the opinions of 1000 collectors or otherwise)
Who actually made them? i dont know and we probably wont know why his name is on the Plate on some small GPBs. But what is sure, is that he never "made" them, and after February 1935 he never made anything else for the NSDAP.

My theory is that i don't have one, i only have the Original facts, and that's enough for me.

**Gary Symonds** · 05-24-2011, 12:05 AM

Originally posted by Josef Fueß View Post

Garry, if this is your opinion, then you can rule Josef Fueß as a "maker" of any item out after February 1935 straight away. He dropped out of the party and stopped working for and with them around this time.

If Josef Fueß Designed or made the GPB, he would have stated so in the interview he gave on the 20th February 1935, where he was asked to recall all of his activities within the NSDAP from 1920 until that date, (for the official NSDAP records) and everything he designed and made. He tells us exactly what he designed, and also what he actually made. He goes one step further and tells us what he was no able to make and therefor needed Gahrs help, of the help of Gahrs wife and his wife etc etc...
he tells us that he DESIGNED the Blood order, but does not say that he made it, which of course he did not being a master goldsmith.
he NEVER mentions the GPB once, either him designing it, or making it, which of course he would also have not, being a master goldsmith.

So the proof is there, loud and clear, it is documented what he made, the date when he made it, who asked him to make items, or who asked him to design items...why, who helped him etc etc, from mundane Party stickpins in September 1920 through to the Flags, armbands etc etc and he does NOT, he DOES NOT say anything about the GPB or making the blood order

So no more proof or opinions are needed, we have the facts, in black and white of what he made, from his own mouth ! (not quoted from the opinions of 1000 collectors or otherwise)
Who actually made them? i dont know and we probably wont know why his name is on the Plate on some small GPBs. But what is sure, is that he never "made" them, and after February 1935 he never made anything else for the NSDAP.

My theory is that i don't have one, i only have the Original facts, and that's enough for me.

Josef:
That is very interesting information, Thank you. If Fuess had nothing to do wiith the small gpb, including designing it, then maybe all of the Fuess marked small badges are fantasies, since nothing like a Fuess marked badge existed during the time period. That is hard to accept.

He acknowledged his paternity of the Blood Order since the first pattern has his name at the bottom. Yet "never mentions' the GPB. I knew that he had some problems with the Party and that is why the sceond pattern Blood Order does not have his name and the eagle is different than the one Joe designed in the first pattern BO.

Based on your account, to "punish" Fuess for his back sliding, maybe the Party had these made with the Fuess name and Munich address, for this prestigious decoration, without Joe's permission or consent. Trying to keep a thread of artistic continuity between the two badges, using the same artist's name on both.

After all in the mid 30s the Blood Order and the Gold Party Badge were the most prestigious NSDAP badges.

**Jo Rivett** · 05-24-2011, 12:59 AM

Originally posted by Gary Symonds View Post

since nothing like a Fuess marked badge existed during the time period. That is hard to accept.
************************************************** **
After all in the mid 30s the Blood Order and the Gold Party Badge were the most prestigious NSDAP badges.

I have plenty of badges produced around the same time, that are marked with very prestigious makers marks, Ferdinand Wagner for example, and can prove beyond any doubt, that Wagner never made them, despite his marks being on them, so who knows? The Fueß markings are only ever on the plate though, and never on the actual badge. Fueß would also, never have made the attachments, that can be ruled out straight away.

I agree with your last point 100%, which is why i am sure Fueß had nothing to do with the GPB at all, after all, we are talking about the NSDAP archives calling Fuess in, to document his involvement with the NSDAP and everything he had made, in February of 1935, and he conveniently FORGETS to mention the GPB ? he would have been very proud if he had designed it, like he proudly mentions about the Blood Order... Quote.."...the Design came from me..."

Ever since i have had the Fueß files, i have been thinking, and what i am sure of, is that "something" happened to Josef Fueß. And i dont recon good either.
The NSDAP were good at wiping out traces of people if they needed (Röhm, Heß..etc ) he states that he had to stop working with, and for the NSDAP because his business was suffering.. I believe he was forced out because of either a Jewish connection, or for working with/for jews, after all, he was a Master Goldsmith, and who had all the money in the early 30`s ? the Jews

I also agree with Wim, that ALL the Fuess marked GPBs would have been made at the same time, possibly on the same day IMHO, and then that was it. (20, 50 or 100,000 could easily have been stamped out in one day)
Afterwards, Deschler takes over and produces both Big and small. When that was? well it would depend on Demand i guess.

**Jo Rivett** · 05-24-2011, 01:29 AM

I forgot to mention two things, the date was the 20th February 1935, NOT as i wrote the 2nd (sorry) and there is a vital point too.... when Fuess is being questioned and says that he Had to stop working for and with the NSDAP, his next sentence is....."But my loyalty to Hitler has not gotten weaker or suffered since then/or because of this.."
So when you read the whole file(s) you can see clearly that He is under pressure, in the spotlight, scared, call it what you want, but it is clear to see that he is adding on a little But i still love Hitler please don't hurt me sentence.

Yes, thats just my funny way of trying to explain, but it is just from the way the files are written, you see, they are the Original Notes taken down that day, so it is a discussion between two people rather than neatly typed files in order.. and it is clear to see that he is not comfortable with some of the questions.

If Fuess was still in Good standings with the NSDAP and Hitler by then, then there would be no reason to add that last sentence.

The Files could be analyzed and a complete book could be written about them, as the more you understand them, and link them with dates, places, events and time, you can see why Fuess answers in the manner he does on some of the questions, and why he comes back to some questions later on and adds on small bits, corrections and what nots....

**Br. James** · 05-24-2011, 06:47 PM

Dear Erich and Joe,

Since I don't know exactly how initial orders for GPBs were placed, I can't say how accurately identical the finished products came out. If the manufacturers produced a very large number of blanks and waited for the order details to come in, such as their numbers, then chances would seem to be good that the badges would be almost identical. And chances would also be good that we would have found stocks of un-numbered GPBs since then. We haven't. But if the badges were produced in small batches -- after the initial bulk orders, of course -- then there were chances that small differences could have crept into the finished pieces. This is only supposition, and hopefully one day we will know all...but until then, "just 'sayin!"

Br. James

**Jo Rivett** · 05-25-2011, 04:00 AM

Originally posted by Br. James View Post

Dear Erich and Joe,

Since I don't know exactly how initial orders for GPBs were placed, I can't say how accurately identical the finished products came out. If the manufacturers produced a very large number of blanks and waited for the order details to come in, such as their numbers, then chances would seem to be good that the badges would be almost identical. And chances would also be good that we would have found stocks of un-numbered GPBs since then. We haven't. But if the badges were produced in small batches -- after the initial bulk orders, of course -- then there were chances that small differences could have crept into the finished pieces. This is only supposition, and hopefully one day we will know all...but until then, "just 'sayin!"

Br. James

James, the Fuess badges, in question here, are identical. And seeing as most of you GPB collectors, who funnily enough knew nothing of the Josef Fuess files untill 2010

seem to think that he actually made them, that would cut down the time period considerably, after all, after Feb 1935 Mr Fuess had nowt more to do with the NSDAP. So we are talking only about the Fuess badges here now. If you all want to still carry on believing that he had anything to do with them, then James`opinion cant be discussed and you must all accept that they were made in a very short period. (introduction date, up until end 1934 or January 1935) IF, on the other hand, you are willing to believe factual, black and white proof, and consider that Fuess never had anything to do with the GPB, then James`opinion CAN, and should be taken into consideration, and then, they may indeed have been made over a period of time.

Alles klar so weit ?

**Br. James** · 05-25-2011, 10:04 AM

Pg. Füss,

Thank you for your response. While I have been at this hobby for 50+ years I have never claimed to know everything -- often, as illustrated in these very forums, I apparently know nothing about a whole variety of subjects! -- and the matter of the badges bearing the 'Fuess München' moniker has long been accepted as Gospel truth. My library contains volumes back to the 1960s which take for granted that, in the case of the GPB, the two and only firms involved in producing that badge were Deschler and Fuess. Period. That being said, and with over 40 years of established thought written by experts on the subject, I am more than willing now to consider that the jewelry firm of Josef Fuess had little to no contact with either the creation or the manufacture of the GPB which bears its name, that indeed the only contact Josef Fuess had with this whole process was -- as stated by Hitler himself in MK -- that Fuess provided a logo design for the NSDAP membership pin, with not one word about the GPB: "A Munich goldsmith by the name of Füss furnished the first usable design [for the party insignia], which was kept." Given the very early date of Fuess' design, it is probable that the badge he came up with was for the DAP and not the NSDAP and that the design had to be revised later in 1920 after the party's name was changed. The physical pieces which bear Fuess' name have all been attributed based on that one sentence in MK. So I am willing to believe that collectors back to the very beginnings of our hobby have been misled by this early assumption. But that was not my point. My point had to do with how the GPB was manufactured -- regardless of whether Fuess or Deumer or whomever else may have actually done the casting, assembling and finishing work -- whether it had been produced in bulk at one early time or had been done on call by order. That was the question in my mind; apologies if I wasn't able to articulate it.

Br. James

**Jo Rivett** · 05-25-2011, 02:27 PM

Originally posted by Br. James View Post

Pg. Füss,

Thank you for your response. While I have been at this hobby for 50+ years I have never claimed to know everything -- often, as illustrated in these very forums, I apparently know nothing about a whole variety of subjects! -- and the matter of the badges bearing the 'Fuess München' moniker has long been accepted as Gospel truth. My library contains volumes back to the 1960s which take for granted that, in the case of the GPB, the two and only firms involved in producing that badge were Deschler and Fuess. Period. That being said, and with over 40 years of established thought written by experts on the subject, I am more than willing now to consider that the jewelry firm of Josef Fuess had little to no contact with either the creation or the manufacture of the GPB which bears its name, that indeed the only contact Josef Fuess had with this whole process was -- as stated by Hitler himself in MK -- that Fuess provided a logo design for the NSDAP membership pin, with not one word about the GPB: "A Munich goldsmith by the name of Füss furnished the first usable design [for the party insignia], which was kept." Given the very early date of Fuess' design, it is probable that the badge he came up with was for the DAP and not the NSDAP and that the design had to be revised later in 1920 after the party's name was changed. The physical pieces which bear Fuess' name have all been attributed based on that one sentence in MK. So I am willing to believe that collectors back to the very beginnings of our hobby have been misled by this early assumption. But that was not my point. My point had to do with how the GPB was manufactured -- regardless of whether Fuess or Deumer or whomever else may have actually done the casting, assembling and finishing work -- whether it had been produced in bulk at one early time or had been done on call by order. That was the question in my mind; apologies if I wasn't able to articulate it.

Br. James

Josef Fuess was asked by Anton Drexler to design a Party badge, Drexler told him what he wanted, Fuess designed it and made it. Hitler liked it, but wanted the words National Sozialitische added (this was after February 1920 t when the party had changed from DAP to NSDAP) What happens now, is anyone's guess coz Fuess does not say. But Fuess Designed and made the first party badges with DAP on, then after talking to Hitler about the change, he made the normal version too, and pinned the first one on Hitler in the sterneckerbräu. (Fuess would have Had them made, and not actually made them, as he later writes that he could not even make stickpins without the help from Gahr) The Drawing from September 1920 signed by Adolf showing ADOLFS design for the Party badge, has long been thought a fake, i don't agree, i believe it is very Real indeed, just Doctored, like so much of Hitlers life, to make him look like the founder and father of the NSDAP when he was clearly not, and make it look like He designed the NSDAP badge.

I tell you, Fuess and his involvement with the NSDAP has been kept hush-hush for a reason, something happened to the guy after he gave this account of his life... what and why is the question.

Yes James, lots of Books claim things without the slightest bit of research, i guess back in the day, a story carried more weight than research

. Jokes aside, 50-40-30 years ago, it was not as easy as it is today to do in depth research.

**sjl** · 05-25-2011, 08:25 PM

Only two comments on this interesting thread.

There is no explanation as to why Fuess's name is on the gold party badge. The fact that it is there has to be explained. It is where makers marked badges they produced (either directly or through sub-contractors) and it has to be assumed this is the case unless there is direct proof he did not. Jos. Fuess applied for and received an RZM M1 contract licence number, so he must have considered being a maker of NSDAP awards and badges.

The fact he didn't mention being the designer / maker of the gold party badge in his 1935 exit interview is not proof he did not, unless he specifically mentions it. He may have overlooked it or it was not politic to claim it. That is the thing about his interview - as you say he was under stress and who knows what he had to say to keep safe or keep his place in nazi Germany. Eyewitness accounts are not absolute proof - look at the Nuremburg Trial testimony. Some truth, some lies, lots of self-serving accounts.

Lots of good information, but we still have the NSDAP's highest award with Fuess's name on it, even if they were all mass produced by a contractor in 1933 and no more thereafter. If he fell out with the NSDAP, they may well have erased contracts and other records to disassociate him with them going forward, as you point out they often did in rewriting history.

Stephen

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