Half Size Blood Order

[WARLORD]

I would be very concerned about the originality of these badges. I was offered one many years ago made in 18ct gold. http://stirnpanzer.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=25

The quality was of greater execution. As to being for the next of kin, no ordinance for this has come to light. As to a postumous award, this again is unlikly. 400 were given, some predating the Putch, the last being Heydrick. One possible use for these could and I say could, be for placing with a photo of a dead holder, to form a rememberance plaque. This would also explain the badge being finished on one side only.

[colin davie]

What's the gut feeling on the ribbon? Does it feel and look period or later material?

Black light it to see if it passes, not infalible but worth a go maybe.

Great table medal BOB.
C

[Bob Coleman]

A Most Interesting Item. I Personally Have Never Encountered One Of These. As Bob Obtained One Of His From A Veteran's Grouping Many Years Ago, I Discount It Being Post War. If These Were Of That Period Of Production, It Is Far More Likely More Examples Would Have Been Seen By Now. I Agree That Likely It Was Meant For Mounting Considering The Blank Reverse. Possibly, This Is A Commemorative Medal Given To Important Individuals Participating In Putsch Anniversary Ceremonies.

[Panzer Rob]

I have seen only one engraved example of these 3/4 size Blutorden and inscribed on the back of this particular piece is:

537
Josef Weber
SA REGIMENT M******220;NCHEN

It has a short length of well-worn ribbon and is cased in what appears to be a first pattern style Blutorden case with a deep red insert (this could very well be the example Jon makes reference to in post #4). I’ve only seen pictures and I have not had the opportunity to hold it in hand, but judging from what I can make out the wear and patina on the medal closely matches the wear on the ribbon and case (the case is actually worse for wear) – basically everything seems consistent in both age and wear. The engraving was not quite up to the period standards of quality I would expect to see on an award of major “significance” but then it isn’t anywhere near as crude as some of the bogus engravings I’ve seen. Does anyone have any images of any of the engraved examples they would be willing to share?

According to info I found on the Axis History Factbook, they have one Josef Weber listed as a Martyr of the NSDAP, killed 16.June 1931 (no reference to SA Regiment M******252;nchen, however). I have been unable to find any further information on this individual.

I would imagine that if awarded posthumously, the date of death would more than likely appear with the individual's name and unit, but I’m just speculating here. I can only guess that the number “537” marks Weber as the 537th Martyr of the NSDAP.

Of course, it would be very easy for anyone with access to a list of martyr's info and one of these blank-backed medals to have a name engraved, but one thing I think this particular example has going for it is that it “doesn’t” list the date of death – something I would definitely expect a faker to include since it is readily available information and would seem "obvious."

Regardless, if the info on Weber is correct and the medal is in fact original, this would lead me to believe that these 3/4 scale Blutorden were awarded posthumously to the those individuals officially listed as Martyrs of the NSDAP and/or their families.

That said, I still haven’t been able to form an opinion one way or the other on these little guys. I do like the one I have seen, but personally I would need to see some sort of period documentation – either printed or photographic – before spending a considerable amount of money on one.

Bob - beautiful table medal. I too am interested in anything related to the putsch and the annual ceremonies so if you ever feel up to talking please contact me anytime.

Rob

[Gregory Koepp]

Ok now lets See what is completely wrong with this nasty want-to-be-period medal!

here is the real deal, as you see I have just shown AFEW things wrong with the two, you really can't say this was for any martyr or member. if it was why make it this poor and not out of Silver and at least look like the real deal?

Gregory koepp

[Gregory Koepp]

now for the fake Blood order mini, look at the Number "9" they look like upside down "6"'s? look at the "E" completely wrong, and I could go on and on, but just let the photos due the talking.
Oh also look at the feet and leg feathers, no where close... the feathers on the whole thing look like they are a cartoon, ALSO NO DASH ON THE DATES!!!
now really do you really believe they made these for such a Historic time and something that meant allot to those who passed or?

gregory koepp

[Jon Fish]

Gregory,
Thanks. Thats exactly what I would have liked to have shown,but without the time! Come on guys take a look at the 2 then say that these are period? The only way they would be is if they were maybe sold as a commemorative tinnie type badge.But to be honest most tinnies put the quality of this piece to shame!.

[Craig Gottlieb]

I'm sorry, but making a comparison between a "standard" size blood order and the smaller, allegedly period, example, is pointless. ANY miniature or stickpin will have different details than the standard size. So, although it is quite valid to propose that these are period (or reproduction) making such a comparison is futile.

I did own the "Weber" piece, so I want to be clear on that before I comment, so everyone knows that it could be said I have a vested interest in seeing these things be deemed original. However, I can be impartial, as it's not like I have sold bazillions of these, and will go bankrupt if someone comes forward with proof that they are fake. That said, here is my two cents . . .

I feel that this piece was "struck" like a coin - the detail is quite good, as Bob Hritz states. Better in fact than on the 1st pattern examples. In my view, despite photographic evidence so far showing one, that they did exist, albeit for some unknown purpose. I base my opinion on the very small number known to exist. If you were going to fake pieces for resale, you'd make a lot of them, as making a coin-die is quite expensive. Anyway, this piece makes for an interesting intellectual discussion. Unfortunately, until a document surfaces, a photo of one in wear surfaces, or proof that they are post-war fantasy pieces surfaces, we will never "know." Incidentally, when I sold mine, it was not nearly the same price for a 1st pattern Blood Order. Reason: I consider them to be real, but speculative, purchases.

[Gregory Koepp]

what a joke, now don't take this or any other post as personal, BUT this is NOT a war time made item.... never was never will...

WHY would they make such a HIGH order in crap medal and not silver and not maker marked not even close to what a real one looks like?? ALSO stick pins that were made of war time issue were just as detailed and maker marked as most of the original full size ones, and they were/are smaller than this post war want to be, (that is much bigger than a stick pin) sorry you think this is war time issue but IF you have had one and sold one I can see you are worried that these will be found out that they are not war time made. Craig for you to back this crap is funny, you have High end items and you really believe this is/was given to Blood Order members?

as i have stated in above posting ALL the wrong stuff with this fake mini, please show or tell all the wrong things that were stated in your own expert view WHY this is a war time made item??? because all the things I have stated is true and nothing has ever been showed to give the impression that this is real. just owners or past owners, also where have these been popping up? in shows or?

all you have to due is look at the item in question, the way it is made, to how it looks compared to known originals, to the medal it's made of, to the ring attachment. that's just a few, and if it fails all those so far, it has to be questionable and not taken serious.....


So please no one take this reponse as pointed toward them it is just an response to the item in question and all the items and photos i have posted are seen and should be answered before this is really taken as a War time issue medal. Also I could post Thousands of Stick pins that are 9mm-14mm-16mm-++ that are made better than this much bigger medal, also the much smaller stick pins are made with better details and maker marked, and some in silver as the full size ones, also they have the correct ring or loop attachments as the full size ones.


so if anyone can show anything that could give any reason WHY this is a war time medal please post? photos/storys/german veterans/anything?
other wise all this medal is going to be is "I say it is real and nothing more, nothing less"

gregory koepp

[Craig Gottlieb]

Gregg, you seem to be very upset about this issue, but you shouldn't be. Nobody is calling you into question here. You can of course propose your personal opinion, but you should be prepared to have your rhetorical technique challenged when it is found lacking. It's nothing personal. Simply put, nobody knows if these are wartime or post-war because there is NO information on them. Comparing this piece to a first pattern blood order doesn't accomplish much. As I stated before, I don't have a horse in this race (or at least, not a very big horse at all). I'm only after the truth. And until evidence surfaces one way or another, these will always be speculative pieces. Do I believe in them? Yes, I do. Can I prove they are good (or bad). Currently, nobody can. You can give your reasons, but please don't become irate when someone disagrees with them.

I criticised your technique of comparing the full-size to the miniature. I gave an example showing why your reasoning was not very sound in this case - the miniature medal or award - almost never maker marked, almost always poorer quality, etc etc. However, if you don't like that example, then consider miniature daggers. They in "no way resemble" the full-sized versions - less quality, often not maker marked. However, they are real. You could say, "But Craig, miniature medals, and miniature daggers, are in period catalogs, so your analogy is not a good one! Well, of course, the analogy is not perfect, but no analogy ever is - and it need not be to make a point. It's important to identify the commonality between two items being offered forth for analogy, to see why the point is a good one. And in the case of my analogies, I do have a point - that comparing the full-size medal to the miniature medal in this case is like comparig apples to oranges.

[Gregory Koepp]

no, no, no I'm not upset

sorry if i worded it the wrong way but sometimes people take it the wrong way, but really it is a poor made medal and I would have to see more than what is just said here to make it anything more than a veteran made item if that???

so i hope something comes to light, good or bad i have no interest in owning one again nor trying to make it something it's not at this time.

greg
i give...

[Bob Hritz]

I don't respond to Gregory's posts because I eschew the hysterical responses.

However, this time I will make an exception. Gregory, please PROOVE thse are fake? You reasoning is faulty and your logic is irrational.

There are original Knight's Crosses made of german silver (neusilber) frames and non iron centers. There are anomolies in all types of militaria. I cannot accept they are fake just because, in the many years of Gregory Koepp's experience, that you didn't like the one you foolishly sold.

I think that reason and logic will make this an unending disagreement, but to dismiss something will require a bit more than you, personally, don't like they way they are made. OK, don't buy one, but don't shoot off your mouth without adequet proof of your statements. Your opinion is less important if it lacks any evidence. I know where mine came from, and NO, they are not for sale even for the great offers I have received.,

Bob Hritz (already regretting responding to Gregory)

[Gregory Koepp]

Oh Bob, why respond now? you know your asking for crap so you will get it now.

let's go back to the start of collecting and not when i started, and from the start "they" say you must prove the item is real and NOT the story, their not real if YOU SAY THEY ARE. please show anyone not me, anyone but me,, show something in any Manufactures OLD back dated books or papers from 1923 on please??? anything in any photos or books about them being FOUND anytime before 1970-80? please let's not get to me having to show these are fake because collecting is both ways, YOU prove it Bob?

just because i haven't been collecting for 60-50-40-30-20 years means i don't know crap, what one knows is what one reads/see/finds/discuses/researches, not find or own or have owned, also if i ever find another one i promise i will put it on e-stand for what i pay for it and it won't be anything over 50.00 that's for sure.....

so don't come at me with prove it's real Bob you guys are saying they are and with nothing to show? OH A STORY! OH! YA REAL!! bull **** Bob, you know they would not make this MIMI-BLOOD ORDER SO CRAPPY! get for real Bob or anyone who thinks so...

Oh Bob, just because some people jumped on your closet buddy collector on his SS expertize with nothing to show, you get all puffed up? get over it and show what your taking about just as we asked your friend on the SS stuff, wheres the photos or proof?

so i will leave you experts alone on this want-to-be LONG LOST MIMI-BLOOD ORDER to yourselves til you PM me with something YOU SHOW,,, I have shown all kinds of photos and described all the faults to it so RE-READ them and start looking for nothing because your not going to find anything "expert" Bob.

also I have called and e-mailed allot of true experts and 4 out of 5 told me they are fake and 1 knew the well known reporduction guy (spelling?) (that faked all the medals that the experts bought) made afew and sold them to ____s on the market.

oh this is to no one personally and is a response to a requested response. if you would like more of my comments please PM me and I'll be right back.

man Love requests,

thanks and will be waiting,

greg

[Panzer Rob]

wow.

Oh Bob, why respond now? you know your asking for crap so you will get it now.

let's go back to the start of collecting and not when i started, and from the start they say you must prove the item is real and NOT the story, their not real if YOU SAY THEY ARE. please show anyone not me, anyone but me,, show something in any Manufactures OLD back dated books or papers or 1923 on please??? anything in any photos or books about them being FOUND anytime before 1980? please let's not get to me having to show these are fake because collecting is both ways, YOU prove it Bob?

just because i haven't been collecting for 60-50-40-30-20 years means i don't know crap, what one knows is what one reads/see/finds/discuses/researches, not own or have owned, also if i ever find another one i promise i will put it on e-stand for what i pay for it and it won't be anything over 50.00 that's for sure.....

so don't come at me with prove it's real Bob you guys are saying they are and with nothing to show? OH A STORY! OH! YA REAL!! bull **** Bob, you know they would not make this MIMI-BLOOD ORDER SO CRAPPY! get for real Bob or anyone who thinks so...

Oh Bob, just because some people jumped on your closet buddy collector on his SS expertize with nothing to show, you get all puffed up? get over it and show what your taking about just as we asked your friend on the SS stuff, wheres the photos or proof?

so i will leave you experts alone on this want to be LONG LOST MIMI-BLOOD ORDER to yourselves til you PM me with something YOU SHOW,,, I have shown all kinds of photos and described all the faults to it so RE-READ them and start looking for nothing because your not going to find anything "expert" Bob.

also I have called and e-mailed allot of true experts and 4 out of 5 told me they are fake and 1 knew Stoval (spelling?) made afew and sold them to idiots on the market.

oh this is to no one personally and is a response to a requested response. if you would like more of my comments please PM me and I'll be right back.

man Love requests,

thanks and will be waiting,

greg

[Carson]

Gee, for "nothing personal"... quite a heated debate.

There are points on both sides of this issue, but I feel that TR collecting has so many fawcets that it is tailored to the individual collector.

There is the price it is worth to the average person, the price it is worth to a vendor and finally... the price it is worth to the collector that specifies in that area. I know that my favourite items in my collection are worth peanuts to the world, but are treasured and priceless to me.

So there it is... my feel good message to fellow enthusiasts. Thanks to all involved as I learned a lot from this discussion. In my opinon, there are no "absolutes" in TR collecting. Just many shades of grey.....

Regards to all.

Carson.