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**williwo** · 06-20-2005, 12:51 PM

German_military want to cancel my post ???

**Bob Coleman** · 06-20-2005, 02:28 PM

Originally posted by williwo

Here was an other one:

http://www.militariaweb.com/auktions...tionID=5094768

It appears to be the same one.
Bob

**German_military** · 06-20-2005, 02:39 PM

Hello,
I found here a sign, just like the second nsdap sign.

http://www.germaniainternational.com/nsdap2.html

greetings,
Frank

**torstenbel** · 06-20-2005, 03:15 PM

its not this one that I was referring to..it is the second black sign that I am referringt o..I have seen that one more than once very recently...Cheers, Torsten.

Originally posted by williwo

Here was an other one:

http://www.militariaweb.com/auktions...tionID=5094768

**torstenbel** · 06-20-2005, 03:17 PM

Originally posted by German_military

Hello,
I found here a sign, just like the second nsdap sign.

http://www.germaniainternational.com/nsdap2.html

greetings,
Frank

ah...now this is the third one of the black ones that I have now seen for sale within the last two weeks...but all are from different sellers...Cheers, Torsten.

**torstenbel** · 06-20-2005, 03:33 PM

Originally posted by German_military

Hello,
I found here a sign, just like the second nsdap sign.

http://www.germaniainternational.com/nsdap2.html

greetings,
Frank

sorry Frank, but I just found the third auction (going for 1 Euro at the moment): http://www.militariaweb.com/auktions...tionID=5097147 so this one. plus yours, plus the one from germaniainternational makes three confirmed ones for sale at the same time??...and I am sure that I still saw another one for sale on an auction site somewhere...??..

they may all be in different conditions, but three identical design, scarce NSDAP enamel signs...all on the market at the same time???

Cheers, Torsten.

PS: Frank, I am not researching this to make you feel bad or anything...I am doing this to maybe give you a chance to get your money back from the seller before it too late...I am also not saying that there is something wrong necessarily with your sign...I just find it very odd that there are suddenly several signs of this design on the market, not saying that any of these sellers are conciously offering bad items...maybe they all bought their signs from the same source without knowing that that source had more than one of these very scarce signs and maybe still has more????

**German_military** · 06-20-2005, 03:45 PM

Hello,
I personally think: Why is it strange?
They don't all look the same to me, and they some from totally different sellers.

I would only be suspicient, if it was the same seller. SS tunics are rare as well, and I also find them all over the internet. These signs are rare, but not super rare. The NSDAP had those signs everywhere in germany.

If I see how damaged the other ones are, I also don't find it strange, that they're being sold.

I'll wait for mine. Than I'll make so much photo's, that you're sure that he's original (or not; but than I'll kill the seller)

Greetings,
Frank!

**torstenbel** · 06-20-2005, 03:48 PM

Frank, I still think it strange and enamel signs can very easily be artificially aged and damaged...but of course I wish you good luck and I hope for you that the signs are all good ones and that they will stop being offered on the market after these three...look forward to seeing those pics when you get your sign...

Cheers, Torsten.

Originally posted by German_military

Hello,
I personally think: Why is it strange?
They don't all look the same to me, and they some from totally different sellers.

I would only be suspicient, if it was the same seller. SS tunics are rare as well, and I also find them all over the internet. These signs are rare, but not super rare. The NSDAP had those signs everywhere in germany.

If I see how damaged the other ones are, I also don't find it strange, that they're being sold.

I'll wait for mine. Than I'll make so much photo's, that you're sure that he's original (or not; but than I'll kill the seller

)

Greetings,
Frank!

**williwo** · 06-21-2005, 02:49 AM

@ German_military

I have cancel my post, as you wish.

**German_military** · 06-21-2005, 05:39 AM

Fakes!!!!!

Hello,
I think it's time to ring the alarm bell!!

Look what I found:
All the same signs. They must be fake.

All the markings are the same
I will not pay mine, that's for sure! We don't even count the ones that are already sold. We can't check that because some auktions are protected.

I also see that most of the sellers have just made a new account (one and the same?)

1. http://www.germaniainternational.com/nsdap2.html

2. http://www.militariaweb.com/auktions...tionID=5097836

3. http://www.militariaweb.com/auktions...tionID=5060137

4. http://www.militariaweb.com/auktions...tionID=5097147

5. http://www.militariaweb.com/auktions...tionID=5098123

6. http://www.militariaweb.com/auktions...tionID=5094867

Greetings,
Frank

**torstenbel** · 06-21-2005, 05:53 AM

Frank, sorry it had to come to this...

when I saw the first sign for sale a few weeks ago, I also thought about bidding on it and then, after searching a little bit further, I saw more signs for sale and I decided not to go for it...when I saw your purchase on this forum, I thought it best to tell about what I thought to warn you before you loose any money...I certainly think that these examples are enough evidence now to not touch these signs and to convince even the most certain seller (certain that his is a good one)...

...about your Ortsgruppenleiter Sign...I do not know...but again I find it strange that there is more than one of these designs on the market right now???....Cheers, Torsten.

**JoeW** · 06-21-2005, 11:15 AM

These enamel on steel signs have been discussed before on other forums. I can only comment on experiences over the past thirty years. Signs such as these were produced abundantly in England in the late 1960s and early 1970s. A variety were available including the NSDAP "Hier Spricht", Kripo Leitstellen, Africa Korps, among others. I recall communicating with a collector from Florida in the days of "Der Gauleiter" magazine who had amassed a collection of almost a dozen such signs, all enamel on steel. I know there are legitimate Hier Spricht sigs out there of tin or wood. But, I personally shy away from all such heavy enamel/steel signs.

**Bob Coleman** · 06-21-2005, 01:01 PM

Joe-

I also remember the English produced signs. They would not convince anyone back in those days as they looked brand new. Today, they are 30+ years old. I have a few signs in my collection. All of them have provenance. It is the only way I would collect them.
Bob

**ROBB** · 06-21-2005, 01:11 PM

Originally posted by ROBB

I too have seen that sign quite a few times for sale, usually damaged .I was wondering wether some clever guy was knocking them up and releasing them onto the market slowly ,its just a theory and I am not saying yours isnt genuine .Rob.

Ha Ha some clever guy was knocking them up after all .

Rob

**paul a** · 06-21-2005, 05:17 PM

Originally posted by JoeW

These enamel on steel signs have been discussed before on other forums. I can only comment on experiences over the past thirty years. Signs such as these were produced abundantly in England in the late 1960s and early 1970s. A variety were available including the NSDAP "Hier Spricht", Kripo Leitstellen, Africa Korps, among others. I recall communicating with a collector from Florida in the days of "Der Gauleiter" magazine who had amassed a collection of almost a dozen such signs, all enamel on steel. I know there are legitimate Hier Spricht sigs out there of tin or wood. But, I personally shy away from all such heavy enamel/steel signs.

yes some enamel signs were done by Mike Ross in London but Hier Spricht the NSDAP was not one of them, I don't think there is a problem with any of the enamel ones they are not that scarce and tend to turn up all over Europe as they were extremely common in WWII probably every town had several, I have seen printed paper on wood copies but all of the enamel ones I have examined in England and Europe look to be original, it would seem a lot of collectors owned them for a short period and then moved them on as they always seem to be on the market and sometimes it is the same one sold two or three times over a two or three year period but I have yet to see a copy in enamel on steel of one of these

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