Announcement

**TSkagen** · 04-11-2019, 09:03 AM

Spellcheck has made some funny corrctions. Obviously it was my grandfather who served in Middelburg, not me or I

**Erich B.** · 04-11-2019, 10:54 PM

Middelburg is in SA Group Niedersachsen, which wore dark brown tabs, which makes sense per the photo--the tabs and cap band are pretty dark. I can't make out the numbers/letters on the unit collar tab either.
Do you know what for what action he was awarded the German Cross in Gold? Very impressive!
Great to have the photos and records of your Grandfather's service!
Thanks for sharing!
Erich

**TSkagen** · 04-12-2019, 02:02 AM

Originally posted by Erich B. View Post

Middelburg is in SA Group Niedersachsen, which wore dark brown tabs, which makes sense per the photo--the tabs and cap band are pretty dark. I can't make out the numbers/letters on the unit collar tab either.
Do you know what for what action he was awarded the German Cross in Gold? Very impressive!
Great to have the photos and records of your Grandfather's service!
Thanks for sharing!
Erich

Thanks a lot for your input. With regards to receiving the DKiG, his batallion was in very heavy fighting in the Orel area from when he went back from his last leave Christmas 42.He was wounded three times in february/march 43. (small arms fire in his ties, arm and leg) He continued operative fighting in the trenches with his men after. Last and fourth time with a "lungschuss" after his HQ received a direct hit . He was getting better and was going to be transferred to a hospital behind the lines , but when trying to lift with the Sani Fieseler Storch, theygot stuck in the mud and tipped over. His men claimed he died the next day due to the crash opening the lungwounds, but the San Feldwebel said he was good after the crash. Surpriseingly a lot of communication letters and many papers and some pictures survived the war. I have several letters from my grandfather to his children and to my Oma. One written the day before he died. Sadly my uncle sold his original medals in the 70's.

With regards to the SA collar tabs, the picture with the dark collartabs is from his time as adjutant in Berlin Brandenburg 1937-39. So they are black, but the other picture is from when he was in Middelburg 1933-35. Could they be brown? They look quite light.

**wilhelm Saris** · 04-12-2019, 02:43 AM

In my opinion the 8 with the portrait-photo stands for the SA-group of Ostmark, which had pinkish-red collar-patches. The school mentioned was at Frankfurt/Oder and where he was Sport-Schulleiter
from 1937 through August 1939..
Frankfurt/Oder it was where the headquarters for this Standarte 8 were.

There existed more Standarte with an 8. One was at Berlin-Brandenburg. They did wear black of course.
He cannot have been simultaneously at Berlin-Brandenburg (see post 4 fro the period 1937-1939) and Ostmark, as the text on the permit is clear about that.

Further the Lockstedterlager was at Holstein, the SA-group of Nordmark;
Eutin also was at Nordmark.. Middelburg was near Eutin. The color for Nordmark was emerald-green, but with both there was no number 8.

It is a pity with the one photo it is not expressed he is an adjutant. He does not wear the proper aiguillette.
The big photo is taken after 1937 as the new pattern eagle is upon the cap.

**TSkagen** · 04-12-2019, 04:39 AM

Originally posted by wilhelm Saris View Post

In my opinion the 8 with the portrait-photo stands for the SA-group of Ostmark, which had pinkish-red collar-patches. The school mentioned was at Frankfurt/Oder and where he was Sport-Schulleiter
from 1937 through August 1939..
Frankfurt/Oder it was where the headquarters for this Standarte 8 were.

There existed more Standarte with an 8. One was at Berlin-Brandenburg. They did wear black of course.
He cannot have been simultaneously at Berlin-Brandenburg (see post 4 fro the period 1937-1939) and Ostmark, as the text on the permit is clear about that.

Further the Lockstedterlager was at Holstein, the SA-group of Nordmark;
Eutin also was at Nordmark.. Middelburg was near Eutin. The color for Nordmark was emerald-green, but with both there was no number 8.

It is a pity with the one photo it is not expressed he is an adjutant. He does not wear the proper aiguillette.
The big photo is taken after 1937 as the new pattern eagle is upon the cap.

Thanks a lot - this was very enlightening. Very good information! This helps me a lot. My mother said he was in SA Berlin Brandenburg, but her memory seems to be wrong. She had a BDM kletterweste with BDM triangel "Ost Mark Brandenburg" when she lived i Frankfurt an der Oder + a Landienst der HJ on her lower arm.

This document more or less confirmes your assumptions of him being i SA gruppe Ostmark living in Frankfurt and der Oder at the time of his death. You can also see he was going from Hauptmann to Major and SA Sturmbannführer to SA Standartenführer after he died.

**wilhelm Saris** · 04-12-2019, 05:33 AM

If I can find the time I will see what I have about his promotions. I have no idea when I can have a look for that.

Your mother: Mark Brandenburg, then she will have been a part for Obergau 141 (which included Lebus). At one
moment the headquarters will have been at the Leipziger Strasse (Dienstsitz Franfurt/Oder). The name Mark Brandenburg
came into being in spring 1939. Before then it was known as Kurmark.

I forgot to mention the SA-Group of Ostmark was renamed JUly 1, 1941 into Oder.

**TSkagen** · 04-12-2019, 06:33 AM

Great, thanks a lot Wilhelm

**squidney86** · 04-12-2019, 10:09 AM

Very cool photos and and information. You're lucky to have been able to have such great stuff from a family member.

Sydney

**wilhelm Saris** · 04-12-2019, 10:37 AM

Originally posted by TSkagen View Post

Great, thanks a lot Wilhelm

Checked my information, but cannot find anything about him and about promotions.
He is not mentioned in the "Befehlsblätter der OSAF" and I think while his rank was
too low for being included there.

**TSkagen** · 04-12-2019, 02:28 PM

Originally posted by wilhelm Saris View Post

Checked my information, but cannot find anything about him and about promotions.
He is not mentioned in the "Befehlsblätter der OSAF" and I think while his rank was
too low for being included there.

Thanks again Wilhelm!

Could it be that my grandfather transferred to Stab, Standarte 8 Gruppe Ostmark, hense the dark colour on the tabs on the first picture. It seems that he his Sturmhauptführer on that pic, and that could be "Hochrot" -looking dark on the picture?

Here are some further pics.
Since the picture in his driving licence is dated 1934 - he is wearing collar tabs for Nordmark

Here one pic from 1936 as Feldwebel

And one from France 1940

**squidney86** · 04-12-2019, 07:11 PM

What is going on with the collar tab in the top left picture of the last post? I know SA Ausbildung considered doing rank tabs like this but were they ever actually used? And if so, I thought there was no piping on Ausbuldung tabs?

Sydney

**HPL2008** · 04-13-2019, 01:27 AM

In my opinion, the right collar patch in the first photograph bears the letters "Om" for a member of the Gruppenstab of Gruppe Ostmark, in which case the collar patches are bright red. Red often appears very dark in black-and-white photographs.

We know for sure the photograph was taken during the time period from 1 Nov. 1937 to 25 August 1938, when he was serving as an SA-Sportschule instructor. (It couldn't have been taken during his first period of SA service up to 31 March 1935 due to the fact he is wearing the later-pattern eagle and his armed forces long service awards for 4 and 12 years, which were instituted in 1936.)

I don't have specific data on the collar patches worn by school personnel (maybe Wim does), but if the school was subordinate to SA-Gruppe Ostmark (re-designated Oder in 1941, the name by which it is referred to in the document), the Gruppe staff collar patch is at least plausible.

The photo in post # 11 is from his earlier period of service as an instructor at SA-Geländesportschulen from 1932 - 1935. The uniform and collar patches were worn by personnel at the schools and camps of the SA's Chef AW. One lace bar is for a Hilfsgruppenführer. Another example of such a collar patch (with two bars for a Gruppenführer) can be found here: https://antique-photos.com/en/mainga...-127-1929.html

Attached Files

Ausschnitt.jpg (63.3 KB, 162 views)

**Erich B.** · 04-13-2019, 02:54 AM

Very good post! With the magnification, you're right--the unit tab is obviously "Om".

An extremely popular film used in the 30s was Orthochromatic, which is not sensitive to reds and shows them as dark grey to black. That would explain the dark tabs, cap color band, and armband as well.

Wim, I've found several references (not specifically SA) and maps showing Middelburg in Niedersachsen in Landkreis Aurich.

Erich

**TSkagen** · 04-13-2019, 05:08 AM

Really good information and does confirm his transformation to stab function as adjutant Standarte 8 Ostmark. Great info with "Om". What does Om stand for? Just short for Ostmark?

Yes red will often look very dark on older black and white photos. That's why I suggested Hochrot - bright red.

I am very happy with all your knowledge with regards to SA - very helpfull

Terje

Announcement

Need help identifying my "opas" collar tabs

Need help identifying my "opas" collar tabs

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Users Viewing this Thread