Diplomatic & Government Officials Rank and Paygroup system

[H.Guderian]

Guys, guys! Peace and relaxing! This is a thread for learn from everybody, and altogether ( If It's possible ) to arrive an unique idea and definitive from the experience and with proves! So please with patiente we can do it all together.
Step by step, 1st the TOP Level from Reichs Minister and Government official that is already finished possibly or some other can add something else.

Said that,

I'm answering from where I left it.

I'd like the unestimmable contribution of Kurt ( that has some work matters ) so we can wait his comments soon.

Appreciated Mark Costa, I wanted to say that ¨Government Officials¨ not department chiefs, highest rank was 3/1. I got an original example I need the permision for it first, so I will ask! heheh.

Agree with comments about Hans Frank, I already see him wearing such insignia. Can anybody tell why? Depending of his functions of that day he wore one or another? the current year regulations? I repeat again the Angolia's reference about the 4 across stars. ¨Note: ¨UM¨dated 1 January 1940, announced the introduction of 4 stars, to be worn with the field-grey and navy blue uniforms, to be worn by the Reichs Ministers and their equivalent Deparment Chief. Stars were aligned on a horizontal line for the Reich Ministers, and three on a horizontal line with one centered below for Department Chiefs ¨ Formalized in the Reichsgesetzblatt dated March 8, 1940. Can anyone confirm such information with such Reichsgesetzblatt? I suppose Angolia had that information.

Very interesting comment about ¨All of these men were Reichskommisaars and considered equal to Reichsministers¨

-Terboven and Seyss-Inquart wore both styles.
-Hinrich Lohse and Erich Koch wore 4 across on their Gov't uniforms

You can't attach pictures like myself... You mean with both styles the Horse shoe insignia with 4 and 3/1, correct? Could you put the direct google link? If there is any example. Marisca already put some of him.

Many thanks to Thomas for his original insignia. Outstanding! Hans Frank wore some similar in theory. In Ministries of the Reich puts is a Ministerialdirigent.

Very interesting comments from Marisca: State Ministers ranking as ReichMinister with the cover of the CIA report. For my point of view the book is marked 1944 not 1942. This book is very interesting but It can contain many errors ¨my opinion too¨ period rules would be excellent.

Mark this post: #49 would be fantastic with pictures from them, testing what you says. I will take a look on the Axisforum. Very good idea!
Can I ask from where did you get such information?


We confirm state minister would be the 2nd highest rank in the Diplo System?

[Mark Costa]

Guderian:

When I stated "both styles" yes I meant the 4 across and 3/1 versions. The link at the AHF that I listed above will show you all the photos to back up what I stated. The regulations are vague and it is obvious that they were not adhered to by the Reichsministers. it seems that the regs were just simply ignored.

In regard to your last comment about the "State Minister" in the Diplomatic Corps -- this is not clear as there was no State Minister in the Diplomatic Corps. The number 2 man in the Diplomatic Corps was the State Secretary who at the time was Ernst von Weizsacker who wore 3 stars across on his 1938-39 horseshoe. Remember the horseshoes for the Diplomatic Corps were abolished in 1940.

There were State Ministers in the Govt Ministries who were considered EQUAL to Reichsministers. These men were such as Meissner and Popitz etc.

But based on photos that I posted at the AHF it also shows that the Reichskommisaars Seyss-Inquart, Terboven, Koch and Lohse wore 4 across insignia which suggested that they were considered EQUAL to Reichsministers. But as I stated Seyss-Inquart and Terboven wore both styles. Makes no sense. And the dates of wear have no bearing on when they used them.

But what is clear based on the PHOTOS, is that both styles (4 across and 3/1) were worn by Reichsministers and their EQUALS and not based on any specific ranking. It appears that they were worn, not based on a rank, but on the preference of the wearer. Whether this is in direct contradiction to the regs is vague. But in any case it seems any regs were ignored.

Mark

[Rick C]

You damn foreigners, it’s a freaking effort to ‘follow’ just what the hell you’re saying George. As I said to Jesús (IRommel) once “Your English sucks but then, my Spanish is worse so don’t worry about it.” Challenged, by way of language, is how folks get to feel they’re not being listened to or ‘heard’. Thus, Mark’s frustration thus far; I'm sure.

As I mentioned in my PM to Jesús, Mark’s a wealth of information. That said, this is a very informative thread so we’re all looking forward to you guys all expanding on it. Thank you (all) for taking the time to share your research on these insignia and ranks.

[Mark Costa]

OMG -- our great friend and master researcher WM Saris in a PM, may have solved the issue which might have been right in front of us all the time !! PAY GRADE SALARY !

Could it be, that the differences in the 4 across and the 3/1 horseshoes have nothing to do with rank, but SALARY ??? Do the men that wear 4 stars across make more MONEY than the 3/1 ?? Did Krosigk and Funk make more money than Gurtner and Darre? Hard to believe, but this might be the reason !!

Is that the reason why some Reichsministers/Reichskommisaars who wore 3/1, are then shown wearing 4 across because they received a PAY RAISE !!!

This is something that needs careful consideration and to honest I do not know how we can research this aspect -- this is going to very difficult to confirm but it makes more sense than any other suggestion thus far. My mind is blown !!!

Mark Costa

[Bob Clark]

Agreeing with that assessment Mark Costa... in all the photos, published and
unpublished, it seems to be that the Official that sports the row of diamonds
all on the same line , ie. no diamond below the other 3, is always of a
"higher function" within the hierarchy of the system, and therefore most likely
of a higher pay grade.

[marisca lrommel]

OMG -- our great friend and master researcher WM Saris in a PM, may have solved the issue which might have been right in front of us all the time !! PAY GRADE SALARY !

Could it be, that the differences in the 4 across and the 3/1 horseshoes have nothing to do with rank, but SALARY ??? Do the men that wear 4 stars across make more MONEY than the 3/1 ?? Did Krosigk and Funk make more money than Gurtner and Darre? Hard to believe, but this might be the reason !!

Is that the reason why some Reichsministers/Reichskommisaars who wore 3/1, are then shown wearing 4 across because they received a PAY RAISE !!!

This is something that needs careful consideration and to honest I do not know how we can research this aspect -- this is going to very difficult to confirm but it makes more sense than any other suggestion thus far. My mind is blown !!!

Mark Costa

I can agree with this ... it has always been said that these badges show payment groups and not ranks ... Ministers who displayed 3 + 1 badges received a lower salary than Ministers who used 4 parallel stars ... would have That corroborate with photos and dates to make sure that a Minister used 3 + 1, later it showed 4 stars and never again later it showed 3 + 1 since I do not think that they lowered the salary to him later, he, he, he

[H.Guderian]

Thank you very much for this post #62 Mark and your patiente in the explanation.
heheh.
About post #64, very interesting! ¨In the Jill Halcomb's book explains that: Sleeve insignia was used to display salary grade rather than the actual position or ¨rank¨ of a person¨
Looking old photos of them in important events after the years We could support it. It's logical than he upgrades his salary after the time and change of insignia.

What is not clear for me yet is the colour of the insignia. Gold and Silver for when and where? I copied in the post #33 I hold the theory that Gold insignia was used outside the Reich, diplomatics basically because they work outside and Government officials inside the Reich in Silver normally, but possibly wasn't correct. This info is what I consider after read the books I mentioned before.

I think We can go to the 2nd highest rank in the Diplomatic Corps. State Secretary like Mark tells was Ernst von Weizsacker. I attach a link with a good picture from him but not seeing his insignia¨
http://l7.alamy.com/zooms/8d2efe29d2...aul-c45ah1.jpg ¨

It's my understanding that the horseshoe insignia was completely abolished the 27th November 1942. After that the Stars system.

Heheh appreciated Rick, I do what I can with my poor english! fandofdsnhlfdios My apologies to everybody. I have to drink some beers before write!!

[Mark Costa]

Guderian:

Halcomb states in her book that group 1 diplomat horseshoes are gold -- Wrong. A color photo of Ernst Von Weizsacker on June 1, 1939 shows he is wearing SILVER. Angolia states correctly that they are Silver. Diplomat horseshoes are abolished in 1940 as the new insignias come into play. The last date they could be worn was in 1942 -- to allow lower ranking diplomats to change their uniforms. Ribbentrop and Neurath are the only members of the Diplomatic Corps to ever wear a GOLD horseshoe.

The GOLD horseshoes worn outside the Reich would be those worn by the GeneralGovernment in Poland and in the Reichskommisaarits in Holland, Norway and in Bohemian and Moravia. No other "Govt Ministries" nor Diplomats should be wearing gold at all. Remember, those attached to the Kommisaarits are NOT members of the Diplomatic Corps, as they are separate entities with status of their own Ministry. I am speaking strictly of horseshoes now. All Diplomatic horseshoes were Silver. Then they were abolished. Any gold horseshoes are those worn by the entities I mention above. So if you have gold horseshoe and someone tells you it came from a diplomat then its not true. It would have only come from the Reichskommissarits.

I am certain now that the Salary had everything to do with the Reichsministers stars of 4 across and 3/1 styles. However, I did check dates for Hans Frank and his wearing of the styles is all over the place in regards to date. One date he is wearing the 3/1 style. A couple of months later he is wearing 4 across. Then he goes back to 3/1. He is the only one I have checked thus far. But remember also in 1942 he was demoted and lost his Reichsleiter title. So maybe he did receive a salary demotion as well. But he seems to be the unusual one of all the Reichsminister and their equivalents.

Lots of info with regulations etc but photos show they were ignored in a lot of cases.

Mark

[marisca lrommel]

Guderian:

Halcomb states in her book that group 1 diplomat horseshoes are gold -- Wrong. A color photo of Ernst Von Weizsacker on June 1, 1939 shows he is wearing SILVER.

Mark

This is the photo:

[H.Guderian]

Outstanding work Mark! if nobody else adds some other version I think the higher rank with the silver/gold style is clear.

I've seen some Gold horse-shoe insignia, lower rank with 3/2/1 stars but the same shape of the leaves. Like you already told they have to be from GeneralGovernment in Poland, the Reichskommisaarits in Holland, Norway and in Bohemian and Moravia. We could speak about these Reichskommisaariats later.

Everybody can change the following info if I'm wrong about the next ranks of the 1st group and 1st subgroup of horse shoe insignia with the corresponding appointment:

2nd Higher: Staatssekretär or Botschafter (State Secretary) with 3 horizontal stars with the same oaks shape style. Example: Ernst Von Weizsäcker ¨Marisca photo¨

3rd Unterstaatssekretär( Deputy State Secretary ) with 2 horizontal stars ( same oaks shape style)

4th Ministerialdirektor with 1 star ( same oaks shape style)

5th Ministerialdirigent / Gesandter I Klasse / Generalkonsul I Klasse without any stars inside. Example: Viktor Zu Wied Gesandter of the German Reich in Sweden

[marisca lrommel]

2nd Higher: Staatssekretär or Botschafter (State Secretary) with 3 horizontal stars with the same oaks shape style. Example: Ernst Von Weizsäcker ¨Marisca photo¨

Staatssekretar= State Secretary...............three stars
Botschafter=Ambassador.........................two stars

[H.Guderian]

3rd Unterstaatssekretär( Deputy State Secretary ) with 2 horizontal stars ( same oaks shape style) Based on the Jill Halcomb's book.

3rd Botschafter=Ambassador.........................two stars Based on Marisca and some other specialists.

Always speaking on the horse-shoe insignia. Any comments?

[marisca lrommel]

3rd Unterstaatssekretär( Deputy State Secretary ) with 2 horizontal stars ( same oaks shape style) Based on the Jill Halcomb's book.

3rd Botschafter=Ambassador.........................two stars Based on Marisca and some other specialists.

Always speaking on the horse-shoe insignia. Any comments?

Undersecretary of State and Ambassador are within the same payment group so the two show the same badge with two stars.

The confusion comes because not all ranges exist in all Administrations. In the Diplomatic Service or Foreign Affairs there are small variations of positions or denominations.

[3x3cut3d]

I thought this link would be helpful.

http://www.germandaggers.com/Gallery/CT6W.php

[H.Guderian]

I thought this link would be helpful.

http://www.germandaggers.com/Gallery/CT6W.php

Thank you very much for such a link. Basing on what we've been speaking here some of the insignia does not correspond with the rank in some parts, especially the Group 1 Section 2. On the other hand we can see very nice original insignia that we can take like reference. It's my idea that Pay group II wore the insignia style of the one with the title in this link:
¨Career Officials
Diplomats - 1939-1940
Government Officials - 1939-1945¨ with the corresponding stars, 4/3/2/1/0


Looking for an U-Boat Commandant White Patrol visor cap named