Diplomatic & Government Officials Rank and Paygroup system

[Mark Costa]

Marisca:

Make no mistake Hans Frank was a Reichsminister and is listed as such in the Reichstag's annual from 1938, as is Meissner Frick etc. Dorpmuller, Darre and Gurtner were ministers WITH PORTFOLIO and they too wore the 3 up and 1 down. What we would be the reason for them NOT wearing 4 across?? Your reasoning is flawed if you take them into account. Also, Inquart, Koch, Lohse and Terboven wore 4 across -- You say they are NOT ministers --so why do they wear 4 across?? The criteria does not match what is being worn by the men themselves. It is obvious that Reichsministers with or without portfolio can wear either style!

Mark

[3x3cut3d]

Not original, but will give you some idea of the ranks in the diplomatic Corp.

https://flic.kr/p/WCLQQG

[H.Guderian]

First of all thanks for the interest about this matter.
Like marisca lrommel showed Ribbentrop wore the Foreign Minister insignia personally made for him ( So this is an apart guy ) The Reichsminister wore 4 Horizontal Stars with 4 sides each in a beggining but like Mark Costa says I've seen too some Reichsministers wearing both insignias, 4 horizontal and 3 above and 1 below.
I can't explain it, we should see when they were asigned to that rank and when it was done the picture. Could some of them have both positions ( or acting like one in some occasions like Irommel also suggests on post #28? It would be fine to see these Reichsministers portfolios wearing such insignias. When they did his Reichsminister function 4 stars and 3 and 1 when they did the function of Government official. Before today I had the believing that the higher rank of a Government official was 3 and 1 below. Based on the Angolia's book the 4 stars was announced the 1st January 1940 for Reich Ministers only.
I hold the theory that Gold was used outside the Reich, diplomatics basically because they work outside and Government officials inside the Reich in Silver normally. Government Poland is another history that we can go after that for not complicate this.

Examples with original attributed stuff would be excellent. A prove is the best way to clarify it heheh.

After this matter we can follow the next ranks below them, for maintain an order and a complete knowledge for the beginners.

[Mark Costa]

Guderian:

The timing of when they were worn does not seem to be any indication of which type was worn. Gurtner, Darre, Dorpmuller, Seldte and Popitz for most of the time wore 3/1 style -- they are true ministers with portfolio --- so portfolio has nothing to do with it. Frick, Krosigk and Funk all with portfolio seem to always wear the 4 star across version. The idea that "department chiefs" wore the 3/1 is just not true. And to be honest what does "department chief" mean??? It certainly does not mean State Secretaries, the number 2 man in each ministry, as they wear 3 stars across only. Meissner was the only man that did not have a ministry. Hans Frank wore 5 different versions -- 4 stars across, 3up 1 down. 3up 1 down WITHOUT EAGLE, 4 across WITHOUT EAGLE, and a horseshoe without stars at all.

And then there are 4 other men who were NOT Ministers but wore 4 across -- Terboven and Seyss-Inquart wore both styles. And Hinrich Lohse and Erich Koch wore 4 across on their Gov't uniforms. All of these men were Reichskommisaars and considered equal to Reichsministers.

The bottom line is that either version was for Reichsministers and their equivalents and which style they wore had no bearing at all on their positions.

Photos obviously bear out that Reichsministers could wear either style and portfolio had no bearing on them.

Mark Costa

[marisca lrommel]

To Mark Costa

Reich Ministers without portfolio: FRANK, H. - PRICK -NEURATH - SCHACHT -SEYSS--.1NQUART

Taken from "WHO'S WHO IN NAZI GERMANY". DECLASSIFIED AND RELEASED BY CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY On who occupied each position in the Nazi Government in 1944.

The only photos I've seen of Meissner, Frick and Seys-Inquart for example always show three and one stars .... I never saw them, as you claim with 4 parallel stars .... please post pictures that show this...

[marisca lrommel]

Explain this photograph and Angolia's comment about the 3 + 1 badge in his book "In the Service of the Reich"

[planet]

Hello Marisca,
this thread is a great scource for sure!! Great work! By the way, the Secretary of state patch You've shown in #7 is mine.

Maybe this is the right thread to show my sample board of some R.M.B.O. patches.

It reads on top: "Dienst.-Kleidungsvorschrift des Reichsministerium für die besetzten Ostgebiete R.M.B.O."
Besides the first eagle it reads "Vertreter d. Reichskommissar/ Generalkommissar 1941".
Besides the bottom eagle it reads "Reichsprotektor: Böhmen und Mähren/ Generalgouvernement".

I think the armpatch is only a sample. Thats why it has no stars.

Hope You enjoy.
Best regards, Thomas

[planet]

one more

[Mark Costa]

Marisca:

Frick was Reichsminister of the Interior from 1933-43. So he did have portfolio. I have sent you a PM as I can't post photos as I am not an association member. I have hundreds of photos of the men in question wearing the insignias of both styles. Many can be easily found on the internet but I will send them to you so you can post for me. In regards to Angolia's book -- it is simply wrong. There are no "department chiefs". The number 2 men in each of the ministries were the State Secretaries and they all wore 3 stars across -- no more than 3 EVER. Hence the only men above State Secretary are the Reichsministers and they wear 4 stars either 4 across or 3/1. There were a handful of men that were considered their equivalents. Those "equivalents" were the Reichskommisaars. Meissner was still considered a Reichsminister and was treated as such. The 4 Reichskommisaars (Seyss-inquart, Terboven, Lohse, Koch) either wore both styles or 4 across).

Mark Costa

[marisca lrommel]

Hi Planet.

Is very, very interesant your insignias....

If I am not mistaken, these badges are a commercial sample of insignia for the General Government of Poland which was also part of the ReichsMinisterium für die besetzten Ostgebiete.

RMBO officials did not use these badges. These insignia, similar to the rest of the officials but embroidered in gold thread on a brown background were for the officials of the General Government of Poland.

The eagle with straight wings would be for the sleeve of the Reichsprotektor or General Gobernor of Poland Hans Frank (see photo)

The eagle with curved wings is for Visor Cap and the manga badge is a star-studded sample, although it may have been the badge that Hans Frank had on his tunic before the star badges were approved in March 1940. Before This regulation existed a insignia without stars that appeared in the uniforms of the ministers (see the other photo of Hans Frank)

[marisca lrommel]

I do not agree with you and I will try to prove it to you Mark.

1-See the cover of the CIA report dated 1942

2-See how are classified the Officials we are talking about

In green who was Minsitro of the Interior in 1942

In yellow who were Ministers without Portfolio

[marisca lrommel]

More evidence:

If you consult the statutes regulating the Order of the German Eagle of January 5, 1944, in its last page says in article 6:

"The decorated ones with the Great Cross as well as the First and Second Class of the order of the German Eagle will receive a Certificate signed by the Führer and countersigned by the Minister of Foreign Affairs and the Head of the Chancellery of rewards (von Ribbentrop is the Minister Foreign Affairs and Meissner was the Chancellor's Head of Rewards)

"Those awarded with the third to fifth classes of the Order of the German Eagle will receive a Certificate signed by the head of the Chancellery of rewards" (The head of the Chancellery is Meissner)

In article 7 of the same statutes:

"The Concession Proposals will be submitted by the Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Reich to the Presidential Chancellery, which will present them to the Führer for approval" (Minister is von Ribbentrop)

He later says:

"The Minister of State and Head of the Presidential Chancellery shall oversee the affairs of the Rewards Ministry." (The Minister of State and head of the Presidential Chancellery is Meissner). It makes a distinction between Minister of the Reich and Minister of State and Head of the Chancellery of Rewards as a lower category ...

[marisca lrommel]

There is a variant of the badge that we are treating used only by Hans Frank in which the eagle has disappeared and seems to have flown to the top of the sleeve ...

[marisca lrommel]

This is the badge shown earlier by fellow Planet in the sleeve of the von Ribbentrop uniform.

This badge was created before the ordinances of March 1940 and was equal but without star. I do not know if the other Ministers had it in the same way, but in the case of von Ribbentrop this badge was embroidered directly on the sleeve of the jacket. The subsequent star badges were embroidered on a patch and this patch was subsequently sewn onto the sleeve of the jacket or coat

[marisca lrommel]

Excerpted from the CIA report (see photo):

State Ministers ranking as ReichMinister....It clearly states that Meissner and Hans Frank are StateMinisters although they are considered ReichsMinisters .... again makes a distinction between two categories: StateMinister and ReichMinister