Surely not original...

[Jo Rivett]

Anyone - Please feel free to PM me if you can find some concrete evidence that it's a fake.
.

Maybe you should start with the obvious? Before you slip onto the Big Wig road of listing whatever you please, then getting mad at anyone who disagrees, sit back, fold your arms and demand that the nay-sayers prove you wrong, via PM
Start with the item, it always helps to have a good old look-see. Nothing on the molecular level now, - not even microscopic - just a few common sense questions.

If you did, then there would be no need for senseless rabble about it being "made to be a souvenir", no need to even go there, the simple fact that it has a series code on the bottom, accompanied by 12cl - the measurement - 12 centiliters - of your silver plated creamer, is enough to show you that it was a mass produced item. In this case a pot, a creamer pot that would have accompanied a set, as they did. So not a one-off, but one part of - a tea set. Tableware, a silver plated pot, a creamer jug, or simply a creamer.

The next would be the actual maker, the logo in the center.

The image is very unclear, and quite possibly you could assist with a much clearer image of the logo later, but to me it looks very much like the Slovakian maker SANDRIK. The wording around the center logo will also end off with A.S. A.S of course meaning Alpacca Silber - silver plate, but that is obvious from the images anyway.

If it is Sandrik, then you have a real job on your hands to connect them, with "Veselka" AND the 1936 Olympic games in Germany. You could mail the company and ask when the design Veselka was made, but that's only of course if the maker is Sandrik

Look on the bright side, though, if you still think it`s the real deal, then, out there somewhere is a whole OLYMPIADE set (minus creamer pot) waiting for a new home.

[duska]

Here a lighter with proper rings.....who would accept such a misinterpretation of the Olympic rings as shown in the start of the thread ?

The rings are correct for the 36 Olympics, the same can be found on the Olympic Bell and Torch by Walter E. Lemcke.

[Gary B]

The rings are correct for the 36 Olympics, the same can be found on the Olympic Bell and Torch by Walter E. Lemcke.

I stand corrected on my other posting with regards to the rings.

My point in the other postings is that stating "if something if fake where are the others" is an invalid argument. The opposite can be stated, if original where are the others. The piece needs to stand on its own.

Gary B

[Quickie]

Nothing wrong with the lighter. Dono about the other item.

[Berghof]

Hold on tight sharks…I’m tossing more food into the tank one last time and going to debate using facts/logic.

Here are some close up shots of the pot. Since I don’t own the pot anymore, I have to work with old photos. For those who don’t understand that this piece was molded, see the picture of the spout. You can clearly see where the two sections were assembled together. Trust me, two pieces sandwiched together = mold. I feel like a broken record (sorry millennials, not an MP3), this was never meant to be tableware. This is not some official government piece that needed to adhere to strict tolerances. It was meant to be and is a souvenir. Just because the Olympics were held in Germany, doesn’t mean every trinket was made and sold in Germany. Let’s get off our high horses in our fantasy world of rules & regulations for Olympic trinkets and let’s get real.

For those who seem to think the inscription was hand engraved, see the close ups of the swastika and letters. I pointed out where you can clearly see casting flaws from the impression. This was not engraved. Engraving produces uniform parallel edge lines throughout with a wavy bottom cut surface due to the engraving tools oscillations. The base of the inscriptions found on the pot are flat and the flatness is consistent throughout, no wavy bottom from engraving. The edge lines are not parallel; they are not clean and are consistent with impression molding. Stamping would cause inconsistent depth and would cause clean raised edges around the impressions. We don’t see that in this example either. It’s a cast impression…period.

So, we go back to the original argument. This was not a one off make. Nobody would make a mold for a couple units and then silver plate it to top it off. This mold was made to be mass produced at the time. Why don’t we see more of them? You should know that. 80 years have gone by. Most were probably melted down, tossed at the dump or may still be on some folks shelves.

Knowing it’s a mold and was mass produced, if it were a fantasy piece, why don’t we see these all over the place? This isn’t a simple sand cast mold of a static/rigid object that many fakers use reproduce medals/badges. To make this in recent years would take a good investment of time and a well-financed operation just to create a mold of an Olympic souvenir (coffee pot) of this quality. I don’t see the demand, I don’t see others on the market, and I don’t see this being a profit source, the ultimate driver of a forger. They would be all over ebay if it was the claimed “flea market” piece some want it to be.

Now, I’m really through with this thread. Have to do some work now….Good day!

[Berghof]

another pic

[Jo Rivett]

Now, I’m really through with this thread. Have to do some work now….Good day!

You are done? Without addressing the utmost important "Slovakian silver-plate manufacturer, SANDRIK? The makers mark on your 12 cl creamer, the maker who mass-produced this item - and most certainly not with any etchings on it.

Maybe the new owner will hop onto Google and find out in 10 minutes that your creamer, cannot possibly have any connection with the 1936 Olympics, and may want his 400 dollars back?

[Berghof]

Still couldn't find anything like this mini coffee pot. The price keeps going up?

Regardless...out of courtesy, I pointed the buyer to this thread and I'll let him decide whether or not he wants a refund.

Also, David Feldman just got back to me and stands behind the product. The item was obtained from Ingrid O'Neil, which he stated that she is an Olympic memorabilia expert. You can reach her at http://www.olympinclub.com/ask-the-experts.html and explain your rationale why the item is a flea market special and not tied to the Olympics. Feldman also offered me a full refund if my buyer chooses to send it back to me.

[Phronsias]

Hi
May I ask if anyone has 1936 Olympic souvenirs or photographs of 1936 Olympic souvenirs with swastikas on them?
Regards
Frank

[Gary B]

As I mentioned before I stand corrected, here are 3 items that show the "flat" ring configuration of the Olympic rings and ugly eagle.

Gary B

[Gary B]

.

[Erich B.]

Hi
May I ask if anyone has 1936 Olympic souvenirs or photographs of 1936 Olympic souvenirs with swastikas on them?
Regards
Frank

I believe the swastika would not have been allowed to be displayed on Olympic souvenirs--at least not on licensed, officially recognized items. Since the games are international, a national symbol would be inappropriate. The Brandenburg Gate, however, is a well known symbol of Berlin so was allowed to be part of the 1936 Olympic Games logo/ decoration.
Erich

[Jo Rivett]

Hotelsilber

Also, David Feldman just got back to me and stands behind the product. The item was obtained from Ingrid O'Neil, which he stated that she is an Olympic memorabilia expert. You can reach her at http://www.olympinclub.com/ask-the-experts.html and explain your rationale why the item is a flea market special and not tied to the Olympics......

"My rationale" should have been yours, the VISIBLE makers marks
The visible series number, the visible 12cl mark, the cross, and the name Veselka

Dont get me wrong, i am not a paid member here so am entitled to nothing on this forum, i am not even looking out for collectors with this post, just highlighting the absurdness - once again. That the actual items are not even looked at, the story, the supposed experts take precedence über alles.

Utter crap like this creamer pot, gets sold day-in day-out to people like yourself, and the person who purchased it from you, aint no changing that and i wouldn't try. I just like to use them as prime examples of how to NOT go about evaluating or discussing your items.

Why would i care what the auction house tells you about something you just bought from them? If your Hotelsilber creamer was unmarked, OK, a bedtime story to go with it could be listened to. But when the actual item contains all the info you could possibly need to trace its origin, then we surely only need to listen to history dont we?

btw, you`ll find that the Hotelsilber Sandrik made, is sometimes stamped at the bottom with the name of the Hotel Then again, that's possibly just me jumping to conclusions here, as you have failed to provide any clear image of the makers mark or even address the maker, so i am only guessing that it is Sandrik (Because it looks like Sandrik )

Weird, no? A fully maker-marked item - yet the details (that reveal everything) are so irrelevant they warrant not even a peep. Not really the right way is it, but there you go.

[Jo Rivett]

Still couldn't find anything like this mini coffee pot.

If you did not even bother to look at the makers details on your Olympic diaster before you sold it, then you most certainly are not going to invest 1 minute on the internet checking up POST sale, are you?
And you need to start reading what people post, even if it hurts. 12cl, is what C R E A M E R S are marked, it is a silver plated CREAMER, not a mini coffee pot. Not a mini one-off souvenir, a creamer, the item tells you this by way of its markings.

A single piece of 1900-1960`s German Hotel silver, goes for around 10-20 bucks. When there are more pieces in the set maybe 50 bucks. But because its silver plate, it is really worthless and would only appeal to a collector of Hotel sliver. (Or maybe a dedicated collector of Tea Pots, or Plates or knives and forks)

Here are a few examples of 1920 GERMAN Hotel silver and the sales prices.

You will note that they have not been bastardized with silly etchings, and contain only the makers details, contents stamps etc.. Probably a better choice if you were going to hump up a flea market find, but the markings and style would give away the period of production anyway - if one bothered to look, or deemed it necessary to find out what the marks meant.

$18.- one German "pot", at 15cl bigger than yours, and from Krupp
$30.- the whole tea-set, German, Krupp again
$49.- Huge 1920`s German pot, Krupp again
HUGE set, 1920`s Krupp again - sales price was €40.- for the lot!

What Slovakian Sandrik- Hotelsilber fetches? a few dollars.... but you can find that out for yourself. Or, the new owner can post it on the silver forum, and find out.

What Slovakian Sandrik- Hotelsiber fetches after it has been bastardized? $400.- give or take a few cents. (Estand price is 350.- plus postage = nearly 400)

Klar soweit?

[Phronsias]

I believe the swastika would not have been allowed to be displayed on Olympic souvenirs--at least not on licensed, officially recognized items. Since the games are international, a national symbol would be inappropriate. The Brandenburg Gate, however, is a well known symbol of Berlin so was allowed to be part of the 1936 Olympic Games logo/ decoration.
Erich

Hi Erich
Thanks for your reply, (Since the games are international, a national symbol would be inappropriate) I thought this myself, hence my question
Thanks again
Frank