Surely not original...

[Jo Rivett]

It's a miniature piece that was molded with the inscriptions....

If you really believe that, then i certainly won`t try and convince you otherwise.

[Berghof]

If you really believe that, then i certainly won`t try and convince you otherwise.

Again, I don't really know what you're inferring by your quote/statement??...a lot of hidden meanings in your statements. Please clarify. Are you saying it isn't miniature or are you saying it's not molded? I'll assume the later of the two.

I'm not trying to be rude with my comments, like some. I'm looking for some constructive feedback and I got some. Now I have an inquiry out the Dave Feldman, the source of the "miniature pot".

I'm a metallurgist and mechanical engineer with intimate knowledge of multiple techniques in molding, metal fabrication (to the molecular level) and machining processes. I can say most on this forum do not have the background I have. Believe me, I can tell the difference between being engraved, etched, stamped, forged, billet & CNC'd or being molded...it was molded. I understand the effort it takes to make a mold... this piece wasn't made in someones garage.

Who the hell would see a money making opportunity with making fake miniature Olympic souvenir coffee pots? Forgers are business men too. They want to make a quick buck. Now, if they could mass produce these, then they could make money, but I've never come across another one...so much for the mass production. If anyone has, please post to this thread. Fakes should be a dime a dozen, especially these since the Olympics just past.

Now, if this was some random full sized coffee pot off someones kitchen table and it was hand engraved, this wouldn't stand a chance in my book. To suggest there were strict government tolerances for some souvenir trinket doesn't make sense to me.

I'm not in denial...If it's a fake, no problem...I will issue a refund. It's no sweat off my back. But what gets me is some are quick to cast snide comments, but don't have concrete evidence to prove it's fake. As previously stated, I'm waiting to hear back from Dave Feldman to see if he has any words of wisdom.

[Gary Symonds]

Again, I don't really know what you're inferring by your quote/statement??...a lot of hidden meanings in your statements. Please clarify. Are you saying it isn't miniature or are you saying it's not molded? I'll assume the later of the two.

I'm not trying to be rude with my comments, like some. I'm looking for some constructive feedback and I got some. Now I have an inquiry out the Dave Feldman, the source of the "miniature pot".

I'm a metallurgist and mechanical engineer with intimate knowledge of multiple techniques in molding, metal fabrication (to the molecular level) and machining processes. I can say most on this forum do not have the background I have. Believe me, I can tell the difference between being engraved, etched, stamped, forged, billet & CNC'd or being molded...it was molded. I understand the effort it takes to make a mold... this piece wasn't made in someones garage.

Who the hell would see a money making opportunity with making fake miniature Olympic souvenir coffee pots? Forgers are business men too. They want to make a quick buck. Now, if they could mass produce these, then they could make money, but I've never come across another one...so much for the mass production. If anyone has, please post to this thread. Fakes should be a dime a dozen, especially these since the Olympics just past.

Now, if this was some random full sized coffee pot off someones kitchen table and it was hand engraved, this wouldn't stand a chance in my book. To suggest there were strict government tolerances for some souvenir trinket doesn't make sense to me.

I'm not in denial...If it's a fake, no problem...I will issue a refund. It's no sweat off my back. But what gets me is some are quick to cast snide comments, but don't have concrete evidence to prove it's fake. As previously stated, I'm waiting to hear back from Dave Feldman to see if he has any words of wisdom.

Berghof, you raise the point that I have raised all the time.

If such and such an item is a reproduction, "where are all the others?"

Of course this question is always ignored and never answered on the WAF.

Don't expect any cogent or factual answers.

The WAF motto is "Don't bother me with the facts."

If the pot is a reproduction, "where are all the others?"

[Gary B]

Forums seem to believe/state the onus is on the dealer to prove something questionable is real; the dealer always seem to state that it is the onus of the forum to prove that the item he is selling is fake....sort of a vicious circle.

The argument that if something has been faked where are all the others should not be used. I could also say if it is real where are all of the other real ones....

In cases where items are unique or not seen very often the item should stand and be judged on its own merits. Unfortunately, with such items there will most likely be those who like the item, those that don't and those that don't know (and others who don't care).

Gary B

[Berghof]

I certainly don't want to push proving authenticity to either party. There are certainly enough "keyboard warriors" on here that don't know much. I just want people to look at the sum of the parts before casting any judgement.

I held the piece in my hands and analyzed it closely under magnification. Some say, never holding it or analyzing it, that it's fake. My point is that all the inscription was molded into the part. That's a serious effort to create a mold with the inscription built into it.

Considering the amount of effort that was invested in the design, you should see these all over the place if it was a fake. A fake of this nature wouldn't be a one off. Forgers want to make money. I'm sure some viewing this are assuming someone found some random miniature pot and crafted the inscription afterwards. Rest assure, that didn't happen. In addition, the patina is consistent of many silver pieces that I own and sell that have undisputed provenance....and I have a lot of them.

[Jo Rivett]

I'm a metallurgist and mechanical engineer with intimate knowledge of multiple techniques in molding, metal fabrication (to the molecular level) and machining processes. I can say most on this forum do not have the background I have.
...If it's a fake, no problem...
.

Why would this ↑, be followed by:↓

...If it's a fake.....
.

After all, "molecular level" and all that..there can be no "if"
In any case, no, there was no mold created, it is but a flea market pot, that has had a bit of the old one-two, 1936 Olympic treatment.
No more and certainly no less. It is what it is, and if it is what you personally wish it to be, so you can flip that dollar, then so be it.

Yes, "flip a dollar" is really the correct term here, for an item purchased - intended for instant resale at a profit.

And because of this term, a normal debate with you about this item is not going to be possible. Thats the truth with many "dealers" and people who stand to loose face and finance.
And what is it with this old rhetoric of "I am" this and that "I have" so many years doing whatever.. all this immediate "Do you know who the hell you are talking to buddy" attitude? I dont like it, it`s done to intimidate and to assert from the word go that one party is so much more experienced than the other, and the rest may as well pack up and f-off to bed.

I have never felt the need to do this, and hopefully never will. When my customers have queries, i can usually help them with either period evidence, much better imagery, and/or a detailed explanation of what you are claiming to be a master of: Intimate knowledge, technical, molding...

For example, if the shoe was on the other foot, i would simply - instead of trying to assert a few words over the opinions of people you have no idea about or what they are capable of, qualified to do - support everything i was claiming, with a few micro images. ( I would do a video of course because that's what i do) but the point is, i would be able to show and explain, why it was, as i was claiming, and not have to reduce it to a shouting match on a forum only, with the loudest voice walking home with the prize - or, the "flipped dollar".

I would research that "name" and the date stamp on the pot, as well as the series number, and then, after all the usual footwork was done, i would be able to tell you all about it, the "pot". How it was made, where it was made, and the rest.

Otherwise, if you are just going to blindly trust a dealer or auction house to do the research for you, believe that their catalog descriptions are meant to be quoted as Gospel, even bickered about on a forum, then you run the risk of possibly being wrong, and possibly running into someone who may know a little better.

[praubal]

how on earth can a sikver plated alpaka jug possibly be priduced from a mould?
Pottery yes....but not this.. It can only be engraved or stamped or rolled ala R.K. kitchenware

[Gary B]

Considering the amount of effort that was invested in the design, you should see these all over the place if it was a fake. A fake of this nature wouldn't be a one off. Forgers want to make money. I'm sure some viewing this are assuming someone found some random miniature pot and crafted the inscription afterwards. Rest assure, that didn't happen. In addition, the patina is consistent of many silver pieces that I own and sell that have undisputed provenance....and I have a lot of them.[/QUOTE]

So, in this case, you are stating that the original pre-45 manufacturer, went to all this effort to make one pot - a one off. Wouldn't that pre-45 company want to make money also? Where are all the other originals if this is the case? What you are basically stating is that a company would have gone to all of this effort to make this pot in the 40s for a one off but no one would do so today.

As for the lighter I would not believe anyone could believe those Olympic rings were ok. They look nothing like a real Olympic ring symbol. And the eagle is atrocious.

Gary B

[compressore]

Rings....

Here a lighter with proper rings.....who would accept such a misinterpretation of the Olympic rings as shown in the start of the thread ?

[Berghof]

how on earth can a sikver plated alpaka jug possibly be priduced from a mould?
Pottery yes....but not this.. It can only be engraved or stamped or rolled ala R.K. kitchenware

It is not an alpaka jug. It was never meant to be tableware. It's a miniature, it was produced from a mold. It's not tableware. Does anyone read anymore????

[Berghof]

Jo Rivett,

Flea market pot - show me another one. They should be a dime a dozen. You have many words, but none to prove it's a fake. You can't find another one. You originally assumed it was a full sized tableware pot that was hand engraved. It isn't. You were siting state Olympic ring specifications before, now you resorted to calling it a flea market pot. When all else fails, resort to the old flea market reference.

You may be able to beat your chest (at your computer) and talk down to others with your inferences, but it's not happening to me. You can try to tear me down all you would like, but I sell WW2 artifacts because I enjoy it, not because I have to. I don't need the money. I'm sorry if money drives all your decisions, it doesn't drive mine. And finally...thanks for the training lesson on how to research.

I'm pretty much through with this thread....

Anyone - Please feel free to PM me if you can find some concrete evidence that it's a fake.

Good day.

[Jo Rivett]

I'm pretty much through with this thread....

I wouldn't do a runner just yet, you have sold a fake item on the estand, and instead of supporting what you are wailing on about and asserting, you have simply, wailed and asserted..... Not really the way that it`s done.

It gives the WAF eStand a really bad name indeed, to see people trying to flip a quick dollar, and when they are called out by other members, they simply... wail and assert, give it the great "I am" this and that, and then run away.

[Gary B]

Again if it is original where are all the other ones? I doubt a company back then would have gone to all of the trouble to produce a die to make one pot or just a few. (Your argument in reverse - that if it is fake where are all the others).

This sort of argument can go on and on with no one coming out on top.

Is there a catalog with this pictured in it? Does anyone else have one in their collection or have they seen one with provenance. That would go more towards proving originality. Like all items never seen before the buyer is the one that has to be pleased with it. There will be those non believers that want pictorial evidence and those that believe wil say there is none since it is so rare...again this type of argument goes on and on.

Stating that the auction company says it is real again is not a valid argument. They have a vested interest in it being real since they sold it. Many auction companies sell bad items....known to them or not.

Gary B

[Gary B]

I will also add, this was made to be a souvenir, not some official state piece with precise tolerances.

To reply to this quote....so this is a one off souvenir (again asking where are all of the other originals).

Also David Feldman is a world renown Stamp auction company. So their expertise wouldn't be in Olympic memorabilia.

Gary B

[praubal]

I dont think there was a deliberate attempt to mislead..Berghof has nice genuine pieces...more a case of misled by the orig auctioneer...