SWASTIKA "AMERICAN QUEEN" BRACELET from VET ESTATE...

[squidney86]

I wasn't implying that the swastika was added post war. But could the bracelet preceed the swastika? Just a curious thought on my end.

[Milton]

Really tough to say. I believe, however, that the swastika design is period to the bracelet. The patent dates relate to the design of the “bracelet / band” itself, and the swastika motif is more than likely contemporary to its original period of manufacture. Thanks for commenting.

[sgstandard]

Bracelet

http://thesocietypages.org/socimages...-the-swastika/
The link above shows an American ad from 1917. American "mobile" swastikas are much more rare than the other type, but they DID exist, as is evidenced by the spoon depicted in the ad.
The fact that it was included in a lot of vet items really doesn't prove anything, unfortunately. WWII vets commonly have even fake 3rd Reich items, as many veterans are attracted to military-themed items, so he could have picked it up anywhere. On the other hand, it's always possible that you are right, and there IS a connection, but the odds are not in your favor. It's a cool item either way!! Thanks for showing!!

[Larry Lipps]

Guys, in my years of metal detecting I've found dozens of good luck tokens with Swastikas on them from the 20's. They seem to have dried up around 1929 about the time of the depression when nobody felt particulary lucky. To try and tie this bracelet to anything related to the Third Reich is just an affempt to grow horns on a doe in my opinion.

[Milton]

To Larry’s point, there’s no definite conclusion one way or the other, as to whether it could’ve been worn in the TR context or not...the fact that it was amongst a WWII veterans Nazi German souvenirs is what gave me initial pause to consider that option. I too, have had MANY “swastika” items, from Native American to simple “good luck” symbology..(reference my post above w the stick pin and fob). What I question, is why so many are seemingly utterly CONVINCED that it couldn’t POSSIBLY have been something worn in the context of a supporter of the Third Reich, considering it’s most definitely of the same period, and showed up w/ this vets souvenir lot. Do you Larry, or does ANYbody, have some irrefutable proof that such bracelets simply COULDN’T have possibly been worn in this context?? Now THAT would be interesting. I DO have a woman’s sash buckle w/ mobile swastika that I can post for some feedback as well. It’ll be interesting to see what sort of overall consensus that will receive....

[Larry Lipps]

Let me see if I understand this, your theory is that someone happened to have a good luck bracelet and when Hitler came to power they said "How convenient, I have a bracelet to show my support". No, I have no positive proof this didn't happen. I also have no proof that a US vet wouldn't wear a Swastika bracelet either. I guess the point here is what is the most likely.

If it's from a vet's estate, I assume we're making the assumption it's something he brought back rather than something he wore into combat. It just doesn't seem likely that something with a US patent would end up being worn to a Nazi party function.

If it was a Bund item, why was it in the vet's estate. The Bund scattered like roaches after Pearl Harbor and tossed the majority of their items. Put simply, I have no proof, but assumitg it's Third Reich is just an argument that, to me, doesn't appear to hold water.

[juoneen]

I have seen the exact same bracelet many times in estate sales and for sale in antique shops through the years. These bracelets were manufactured prior to "twist o flex" bands, so if you twist it it will break.
It for sure was found in a veterans things, but could have been something that had been his mothers or his wife's, so without the man being here to say what he knows, it's a tied up horse to me.
It doesn't matter what we think , as we all do not subscribe to the same opinions on items like this that are outside the box.
All I know is what I believe.....dictates what I would add to my own collection, same goes with the folks here also....and I would stay with the nazi items from the estate strictly, and wish well to who ends up with the bracelet, but for sure it wouldn't be most of us here...although there are lots of folks who will buy anything bearing a swastika because they do collect all manners of swastika related items, third reach or not....still it's not much outside the price range of a BWB to me even if mint. Pennsylvania yields lots of stuff like this...especially at black angus or renningers.

[Gaspare]

whether mobile or static that bracelet has nothing to do with the 3rd reich!

If I could get to my reference books I could show the exact piece for sale in a 1920s Wards catalog and Sears of the same time period..
It's a good luck/fortune piece period.......

[eldenwaff]

I agree that a pre Nazi mobile Swaz is uncommon, certainly not rare or unheard of ... Thing is, there is absolutely no way to prove a TR connection short of a period photo in wear, so why even try ?
It is an early American piece, in all likelihood never left the country and was merged with a TR collection at some point of time due to the Swaz.

[Milton]

Gents, theories abound. Anything’s possible. It IS more than likely, not affiliated with the TR, and how it came to be mixed in w/ the vets items is anyones guess, however, considering all possibilities, it’s not out of the question, considering the circumstances as far as I’m concerned. It just didn’t seem so completely illogical that the vet couldn’t have picked it up while overseas. Is it the consensus of you folks that something w/ US patent information couldn’t possibly have shown up in Germany during the thirties? I am blissfully unaware of any trade embargoes that occurred during the early days of the Reich, that would've precluded the availability of such an item at a German retailer in the early days of the Reich, so the US patent information wasn’t a consideration in my theory. I too, have come across quite a few of these type of bracelets over the years, but never have I had one w/a mobile swastika as its central motif. If any of you have reference photos of one, please post it here, as I’m sure they’re out there. Why not? as it was obviously a popular motif prior to the war. As I mentioned earlier, I believe I have a woman’s sash buckle which also depicts a mobile swastika. Perhaps you folks will also be willing to pass your collective judgement on this piece as well. I do wonder though, how do most of you differentiate between items actually worn in Germany in this period in this fashion, with this symbol, in this configuration, from the domestically produced “good luck” pieces if both bear the same symbology, especially if it is NOT marked .800 / .835, or have GERMAN patent markings, or has an obvious native American or “good luck" connection? Believe me, were it a checker piece, brass water spigot, ceramic stoneware pitcher, etc, I’d have come to an easier conclusion. But perhaps the best theory is that the vet came across it somewhere, and decided due to the symbology, that it’d be a good idea to add it to his “stash”.

[eldenwaff]

If you google "swastika bracelet" then images, a couple rows down there are 2 that appear nearly identical to yours - One that links to snyder [whos site is apparently down], the other to an ebay action.

Here is another very similar
http://www.rubylane.com/item/195589-...rt-Ex78pansion

[BrianK]

To Larry’s point, there’s no definite conclusion one way or the other, as to whether it could’ve been worn in the TR context or not...the fact that it was amongst a WWII veterans Nazi German souvenirs is what gave me initial pause to consider that option. I too, have had MANY “swastika” items, from Native American to simple “good luck” symbology..(reference my post above w the stick pin and fob). What I question, is why so many are seemingly utterly CONVINCED that it couldn’t POSSIBLY have been something worn in the context of a supporter of the Third Reich, considering it’s most definitely of the same period, and showed up w/ this vets souvenir lot. Do you Larry, or does ANYbody, have some irrefutable proof that such bracelets simply COULDN’T have possibly been worn in this context?? Now THAT would be interesting. I DO have a woman’s sash buckle w/ mobile swastika that I can post for some feedback as well. It’ll be interesting to see what sort of overall consensus that will receive....

You can't prove a negative like this - that it couldn't have been worn by somebody in the TR period.

[Milton]

You can't prove a negative like this - that it couldn't have been worn by somebody in the TR period.

....my point exactly. Admittedly, I claim no particular expertise in marketing, however, if I had a line of merchandise that featured a central motif, which suddenly became the national symbol of an entire nation, I “might” be inclined to find a way to bring said merchandise to that particular market...Just a thought.

[eldenwaff]

....my point exactly. Admittedly, I claim no particular expertise in marketing, however, if I had a line of merchandise that featured a central motif, which suddenly became the national symbol of an entire nation, I “might” be inclined to find a way to bring said merchandise to that particular market...Just a thought.

While we are aimlessly conjecturing ...
Never any shortage of German manufactured NS trinkets - And considering part of their mantra early on was pride in German workmanship [and rightfully so], I would think the vast majority of prospective buyers in Germany would either frown or laugh at a USA made offering.

[Milton]

While we are aimlessly conjecturing ...
Never any shortage of German manufactured NS trinkets - And considering part of their mantra early on was pride in German workmanship [and rightfully so], I would think the vast majority of prospective buyers in Germany would either frown or laugh at a USA made offering.

....I don’t see why, as there’s nothing particularly “bad” quality-wise with any of the pieces I’ve shown here or have come across over the years. In the realm of “kitsch” in general, there’s such variation that I’d not assume to pass an all encompassing judgement call one way or the other as to who’d find what “acceptable” or otherwise.
When most of these pieces were made, here or there, higher quality in general was more the norm, I’d say.