Political Desk Eagle vs Pole Top Eagle

[Br. James]

Thanks for this additional illustration, Serg; very helpful.

Cheers,

Br. James

[mrec27777]

BR and SERG , great work!..i agree with both !... i believe though , there are more variations out there .... EC

[mloppkit]

Hi Br James,
Thank-you for the clarification and the great information regarding the progression of the Third Reich Political eagles- a wealth of knowledge once again:

If I may, I'd like to suggest a possible re-ordering of the birds provided by Michael in his note #10:

left to right:
Type 2 Type 1 Type 3 Generic (??)..... Br James

I have re-ordered the PoleTops to suit but have put the 'Generic' as type '3'. After searching the WAF forum and the net, I have found that these are 'Car Flag Pole Tops', and appear in different sizes and makers (but always RZM marked)and are Nickel-Plated Brass and originated around 1935-6 as opposed to the 1938 style Aluminium Pole Tops that were for hand-held flags, Please feel free to correct this order if you think type 3 & 4 should be 'switched around',

Best Regards,
Michael

[Br. James]

Thanks Michael. I remain uncomfortable with the style you describe as the "Generic" pole top, and with the additional information that this is, in fact, a car fender pole topper, that seems to remove it from the evolution of flag pole tops -- at least in my mind. Having not studied fender pole tops, it is surprising to me to note that, while the large flag pole tops presented a sense of consistency, apparently fender toppers could be cast in any shape or design that the customer wanted...? Assuming that the major organizations' flag pole tops preceded the auto fender toppers, it would seem logical to me that the later-executed fender tops would have made some effort to at least resemble the tops of the organizational flags they would carry...but apparently that was not the case. But this fact would appear to remove car fender toppers from any series attempting to display the progression of flag pole tops.

That these independently-designed car fender flag toppers were "always RZM marked" is also surprising, since the evolution of the RZM itself strove to establish focused standards which were not present during the Kämpfzeit when there were no 'standards' and seemingly whatever anyone could afford to have produced was acceptable.

Cheers, my friend,

Br. James

[Military]

Hi Michael,

Just my opinion but I feel that following your post #18, only Type 2 and 4 are the ones recognized in the collecting field and have already been labelled as Type 1 and Type 2. The Type 1 on #18 is more commonly recognised as a desk piece.

Mil

[mloppkit]

........ I remain uncomfortable with the style you describe as the "Generic" pole top.......Br James

..........That these independently-designed car fender flag toppers were "always RZM marked" is also surprising....... Br James

Br James,

These Flag Pole Toppers referred to as "Generic" by OldFlagsWanted (number 4 in OFW picture) in the Flag & Pennant forum appear as both hand held flag pole Tops & Vehicle fender flag pole tops, I was just making the point that some of the ones that have been posted here on the WAF have been identified as Fender Tops as well as being found as normal political flag pole tops and are recognised as a legitimate form of flag pole top in the series.

These flag pole tops are not that uncommon and seem to be a high quality flag pole top and the design and appearance of the eagle always seems very consistent and distinctive with the downwards sloping wings, the material is always nickel-plated brass, and just as we are uncomfortable with any of the Type 3 Aluminium Pole Tops (number 12 in OFW picture) without RZM markings, I have never seen one of these 'Generic' type political pole tops without an 'RZM' marking and would be equally uncomfortable if presented with one not RZM marked. The RZM marking- RZM-5, RZM-2 or RZM DRGM seems to be the most common maker marks on these.

My question to you would be – In a time-line, would you consider these ‘Generic’ flag pole toppers to have preceded the RZM marked Aluminium Flag Pole Toppers, did they appear after the RZM Aluminium marked Flag Pole Toppers or did they both appear around the same time and was this time 1936-1938?

(Photos- OFW & Craig Gottleib & Jeff Clark)

Best Regards,
Michael

[mloppkit]

Another example, note non-cutout swaz ,RZM-5 example

[oldflagswanted]

more on NSDAP full size eagle flag pole tops

..."Generic" ...number 4 in OFW picture ...are recognised
as a legitimate form of flag pole top in the series. These
flag pole tops are not that uncommon ...the design ...with
the downwards sloping wings, ...would you consider these
‘Generic’ flag pole toppers ...
(Photos- OFW & Craig Gottleib & Jeff Clark)
Best Regards,
Michael

Hello Michael:
As I stated on the WAF flag forum t=709949 , I call the OFW photo
#4 eagle top 'generic', as IMO it is very seldom seen (full size), in
comparison to many surviving now classic defined NSDAP 1st/2nd
Pattern examples. In that other thread (post #12) the photo type
#4 is IMO a generic commercial limited made product, so not one
of the normally seen NSDAP eagle flag pole tops. I might change
my mind if the 'generic' eagle top shows up in a mass use photo.
OFW
(below) So I continue to endorse your t=709949 post #17 type 1,2,3 sequence.

(below) Classic defined NSDAP top (was) type #2, and maybe (now) type #3.

[Br. James]

Hi Michael,

I'm glad that OFW responded before I had a chance to, since his reply agrees with my own sense of these unusual toppers...and also because he's studied this subject over the years far more closely than I have. Sorry that I can't put any closer dates to the beginnings of these generic toppers, though it may be that the materials they were made from might give a clue, especially since the large aluminum toppers were executed from that material in order to make carrying them easier and less top-heavy. Fender toppers don't have those considerations.

Br. James

[mloppkit]

........#4 is IMO a generic commercial limited made product, so not one
of the normally seen NSDAP eagle flag pole tops.......OFW

Hello OFW,
Many thanks for your explanation. It makes perfect sense to me, I have handled maybe only half a dozen of these 'generic' Eagle PoleTops over the years compared to 20 or 30 of the Aluminium RZM marked ones and agree entirely that they were a 'generic commercial limited made product' as you point out.

I think maybe they were earlier than the Aluminium Pole Top Eagle due to the larger swaz and the fact that they were made of Nickel Plated Brass which could both be clues to the period as Br James notes but I have no evidence of this and it's really just an unsubstantiated theory at this stage.

Many thanks also for posting the fantastic color photo of the 'sea' of 'Classic defined NSDAP tops' . What a great picture and I will be certainly keeping my eyes open for more pictures like this showing other types of 'Pole Toppers' in the future.......

Best Regards,
Michael

[all1knew]

Hello all,

Here's one I picked up recently. It is without the kickstand in the back like the one that started the thread. Any thoughts on this type?

William Kramer

[all1knew]

2

[Military]

Hi,

I think it is a post-war cast. In originals, especially in early exmples, the details are stunning.

Mil