Political Desk Eagle vs Pole Top Eagle

[mloppkit]

Hello Everyone,
I opened up a discussion about an Eagle that I believe might be a political Pole Top eagle on the WAF Flag, Pennant & Standarte Forum section 3 weeks ago and received zero responses so I thought I might try again here in the political section. As we know, there is an early political desk top eagle with a fold-up stand that is accepted as period original. I show a nice example from John T.- Photos Courtesy John T.

[Tony T-S]

So is your thought that the desk top eagle is made from the same die/ casting as a particular pole top eagle? The pictured eagle certainly looks like it could be the front half of one with a new rear casting to take the folding stand. I wonder what people think? I know nothing about these, but its an interesting suggestion.

[mloppkit]

My question is:

I have seen a few examples of this eagle with a cut out swaz over the years and believe that they could be an early Pole Top version. They are double sided and very well detailed and I have no doubt are also original to the period. These are the only photos I could find of an original one at the moment,- they seem to be quite scarce as this version was quite early- note the thin swaz. This one has been mounted desk style on marble but I'm sure I remember seeing one posted that still had a small length of pole attached that had been sawed off.
I know that sometimes pole-top eagles were period mounted as desk pieces and have recently seen a different Pole Top eagle (similar to the one Craig Gottleib) posted here some time ago mounted on a marble stand. Has anyone else seen this eagle as a Pole Top in photos or is it just a different style desk eagle???

Best Regards, Michael

[mloppkit]

More photos showing details...

[mloppkit]

A different type of Flag Top eagle as a desk piece...

[mloppkit]

Last one - A photo of the swaz details...

[Military]

Hi Michael,

The desk piece from John is very well detailed and defo one that I like compared to the reproduced casts in the market today. I have never seen the design that shows such details on the back and i think that your hypothesis seems reasonable that they could be early pole top pieces. The first pattern NSDAP pole eagle has sometimes been used as desk pieces. I have always wanted to obtain a Gahr one but never had any luck.

Mil

[Military]

If memory serves me well, i think there was an old post that the one with the stand were not just desk pieces but also used by newspaper vendors as a paperwight or when manning those stands that gave out the NSDAP flyers.

Mil

[mloppkit]

Thanks Br. James,

the reverse of this style of eagle included provision for it to stand upright on a desk or other surface, or to be used as a pole topper. I also believe there was a version of this early design that included a device for mounting the piece on a wall.
Hope this is helpful,

Br. James

I had completely forgotten about the other version with the mounting block above the desk stand piece. This "mounting block" is believed to have been used to hang the eagle from the wall if the desk stand wasn't used. Appreciate the reminder and can't believe that it slipped my memory completely.

Mil, Thanks for your comments:

The desk piece from John is very well detailed and defo one that I like compared to the reproduced casts in the market today. I have never seen the design that shows such details on the back and i think that your hypothesis seems reasonable that they could be early pole top pieces. The first pattern NSDAP pole eagle has sometimes been used as desk pieces.

I have just found some photos of one of these early double-sided eagles with its original cut-off mounting. I have never seen this type of mounting before, it is nickel-plated brass and metric and looks like it had something as its core??? The eagle is also nickel-plated brass just like the early 1st pattern flag-pole tops. I am hoping people have some thoughts on this mounting bolt. While my initial thought was that this is an early Pole Top eagle, I don't belive that OFW has seen one in use and this tends to sway my judgement that it is a desk top bird but then this bolt thing throws me again.....anyway have a look and all comments welcome...

Best Regards,
Michael

[mloppkit]

Mystery Solved - Type 2 M29 Pole Top Eagle:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...top+eagle+desk

Thanks to all that contributed to this investigation - both in this Political Organisations Forum and the Flag Section, much appreciated,

Best Regards,
Michael

[Jean-Claude]

Very interesting thread Michael and I learned something new (again)!

If I would have had to "organize" these bird by period I would have switched type 1 & 2 around because to me the second type looks earlier (design wise) than the first type

Thanks for the info

JC

[Serg]

I think there was a mistake, type 1 and type 2 it is necessary to trade places.

[mloppkit]

No mistake Serg, I went with with Br James opinion on the 1st Type Political Flag Top, he has thoroughly studied the evolution of the Political Reichsadler and knows a lot more about these than most of us and describes this one recently posted by Steve as:

It sure looks like an original example of the M-27 eagle and swastika design, the first one adopted by the NSDAP, in 1927.
Br James

As for the Type 2 Eagle, it was recently described by ErichS as an M29 pattern so I have labelled them accordingly,

Best Regards,
Michael

[Br. James]

If I may, I'd like to suggest a possible re-ordering of the birds provided by Michael in his note #10:

left to right:
Type 2 Type 1 Type 3 Generic (??)

The earliest sketches of the eagle-and-swastika design, probably drawn by Hitler himself, provide us with a stylized and 'soft' (in terms of stance) eagle perched atop a wreathed swastika -- and the wreath and swastika are clearly the predominant feature of the overall design, with the eagle being small in comparison to the wreath and swastika. This is what I usually think of as the Model 1927 design -- the M-27. The idea of the eagle atop the swastika fast caught on, design-wise, and the size of the wreathed swastika was already beginning to shrink while the bird was taking on a more upright and formalized stance. By the time the M-27 cap eagle came into general usage, the eagle had already taken on a stiff and formalized posture -- so different from the earliest designs -- and the wreathed swastika had already begun to shrink. (A comparison of the very early-design eagle and swastika featured in the banner headline of the "Völkischer Beobachter" with what became known to be the M-27 design will show two quite different concepts.) The first post-accession-to-power cap eagle design -- the M-34 -- immediately shows a quite formalized eagle atop a lesser wreathed swastika, and by the M-36 and later designs the eagle had taken over as the main feature of the overall design, with the diminutive wreathed swastika in its claws as almost an afterthought. The complete reverse of the early designs for the eagle and swastika! To me, this evolution speaks of the place the NSDAP played in the German State: in the 1920s, during the Kämpfzeit, the Party was struggling to find its place within a hostile society distracted by many parties and points of view, and this was indicated and stressed by the overarching presence of the swastika in the design concepts of the NSDAP; but as the Party gained prominence in the German society, it needed to display its individuality less and less, until by 1939 the eagle was the only symbol of the German Nation and People, and the swastika had fallen to the position of a representation of the NSDAP within the life of a one-party State. As the saying went: Hitler was Germany and Germany was Hitler!

(I'm afraid that the poletop shown as the "Generic" design is a loss to me; it does not resemble any topper that I can think of.)

Apologies for chuntering on! Cheers, my friends,

Br. James

[Serg]

Br. James thanks. I will add a Völkischer Beobachter newspaper illustration of September, 1925 with an eagle of the first type.
http://best-of-dzm.de/assets/images/...eobachter2.jpg