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**Chris Obermeyer** · 07-31-2013, 11:29 AM

Originally posted by tgn View Post

One thing you should learn, nothing is IMPOSSIBLE. At the end of the war, they were scraping together anything to sell or trade for food and clothing. Shops were picked clean of saleable items, even prototypes.

Tom

I did NOT say that it is impossible to find an original German Order, even today. All I am saying is that a German Order on a sample board is IMPOSSIBLE so, my opinion stands firm.
Only what are the odds of this story to be true, a million to one?
How can anyone say it is a Deumer German Order by these pictures? For what I know all decorations on these pictures may be fakes.

**Ron Weinand** · 07-31-2013, 12:27 PM

I have purchased similar boards from veterans on several occasions. While not all the same, all came from the same company (Deumer) and all had the same board backing. Most came with a typed list in German with names to match the numbers on the board award . So your one in a million is not a safe bet. You just need to buy more from the real veterans who made our hobby possible in the good ole USA.

**Leroy** · 07-31-2013, 12:31 PM

I believe Ron's "story" 1000%.

**tgn** · 07-31-2013, 02:23 PM

Originally posted by Chris Obermeyer View Post

I did NOT say that it is impossible to find an original German Order, even today. All I am saying is that a German Order on a sample board is IMPOSSIBLE so, my opinion stands firm.
Only what are the odds of this story to be true, a million to one?
How can anyone say it is a Deumer German Order by these pictures? For what I know all decorations on these pictures may be fakes.

I have known Ron for years, and he doesn't make up stories. Plus he has the photos to prove it. Whether or not the awards were real is IMPOSSIBLE to determine from the photos. But the odds of the story being true are 100%.

Tom

**JoeW** · 07-31-2013, 04:20 PM

Originally posted by Leroy View Post

I believe Ron's "story" 1000%.

I don't think anyone doubts Ron's story of the pictures he took. I certainly don't. Nor do I doubt the story the vet told him. What I do question is the vet's recollection of the time frame of the events and what exactly happened.

**Ron Weinand** · 07-31-2013, 04:50 PM

Joe, I saw the man's discharge at the time, so I know the time frame was correct as he was home in 1945. No time to make up new material.

**Don D.** · 07-31-2013, 04:52 PM

Originally posted by Chris Obermeyer View Post

I did NOT say that it is impossible to find an original German Order, even today. All I am saying is that a German Order on a sample board is IMPOSSIBLE so, my opinion stands firm.
Only what are the odds of this story to be true, a million to one?
How can anyone say it is a Deumer German Order by these pictures? For what I know all decorations on these pictures may be fakes.

Perhaps because it is not a "sample board" for a salesman but a put together souvenir board assembled to be sold to the occupying soldiers.

**fredswiss** · 07-31-2013, 05:46 PM

I totally believe Ron's story. I also have a "souvenir" board that I purchased from a veteran who stated that he acquired it in May, 1945 (and, if I remember correctly, he said he returned to the U.S. in July, 1945). Here's a photo of my (sorry for the poor quality):

Attached Files

image.jpg (93.4 KB, 76 views)

**fredswiss** · 07-31-2013, 05:47 PM

And I apologize for posting it upside down (not sure how that happened).

**jabnus** · 08-01-2013, 04:35 AM

Stories are nice (whether or not they are true) before going to bed, but i rather look at the items and try to understand those. Seeing the NSDAP 25 year cross on these boards does for me not prove anything yet that they were real PRE war's end. Certain German makers are known to have made the strangest things after the war.

This NSDAP 25 year cross is similar to the one appearing in Angolia's For Fuhrer und Fatherland, that featured this style mounting adorned with a gathered "woman's" narrow longer ribbon prepared for wearing like a brooch. In the intervening years, this mounting without the gathered narrow ribbon has been labeled a neck order I believe by another author.

Yes the picture in Angolia shows the small ribbon that is (also for other awards) often described as being for women (which seems plausible but i can't comment further on at this moment). In for example Ailsby's "German nazi party awards" is shown such a cross (same as on this board by Ron) with a thick normal ribbon through the suspension loop and called (according to said book named so after one of Lother Hartungs book's) a neckorder. I also believe these pictures come from Weitze as they are the same he has (had?) on his site as a prototype.

A few things that i would love to see answered and where Ron's board might be interesting for:

-1 Is this really a female brooch as Angolia calls it? I find this strange, the suspension loop sure looks more fitting for a smaller (woman???) ribbon, but a brooch? Such a heavy cross on such a fragile ribbon bow - that could judging the picture in Angolia only be worn on a small pin on her dress - seems highly unlikely and unpractical.

-2 Judging the more well known picture from Weitze with a piece of regular (broad) ribbon stuck through the suspension loop and calling it a neck order seems also unlikely. The more i see this picture the more it seems as if a broad ribbon has just been added and pushed through the loop. What evidence is there that this is actually a neckorder?

-3 Back to the board at the start of this topic: it shows a neckorder/female brooch/award-with-suspension-loop, but what evidence is there that this is actually a pre may 1945 item? Im quite sceptical if it comes to vet stories as it wouldn't be the first time a vet has acquired a few items himself during the past 70 years. which brings us back to the qquestion: when was this board exactly made? Is this award-with-loop an Original wartime item or not? Then what would it's purpose be? In my humble opinion the definitive answer can not be gotten from vets stories, they can point perhaps in a certain direction, but period paperwork would be much better.

-4 Lastly, if there is any vet acquired accompanying paperwork to these boards, how does it describe this 25 year cross then? Does such paperwork exist for this particular award?

This is a very interesting topic!

best regards,
Gaston

ps: this topic has now more discussions running through eachother (about the NSDAP25 year cross, about the German Order, about vets stories, about vets finds...), hope it doesn't get too messy as this can become a real good discussion.

**JoeW** · 08-01-2013, 07:57 AM

Originally posted by jabnus View Post

Stories are nice (whether or not they are true) before going to bed, but i rather look at the items and try to understand those. Seeing the NSDAP 25 year cross on these boards does for me not prove anything yet that they were real PRE war's end. Certain German makers are known to have made the strangest things after the war.

Yes the picture in Angolia shows the small ribbon that is (also for other awards) often described as being for women (which seems plausible but i can't comment further on at this moment). In for example Ailsby's "German nazi party awards" is shown such a cross (same as on this board by Ron) with a thick normal ribbon through the suspension loop and called (according to said book named so after one of Lother Hartungs book's) a neckorder. I also believe these pictures come from Weitze as they are the same he has (had?) on his site as a prototype.

A few things that i would love to see answered and where Ron's board might be interesting for:

-1 Is this really a female brooch as Angolia calls it? I find this strange, the suspension loop sure looks more fitting for a smaller (woman???) ribbon, but a brooch? Such a heavy cross on such a fragile ribbon bow - that could judging the picture in Angolia only be worn on a small pin on her dress - seems highly unlikely and unpractical.

-2 Judging the more well known picture from Weitze with a piece of regular (broad) ribbon stuck through the suspension loop and calling it a neck order seems also unlikely. The more i see this picture the more it seems as if a broad ribbon has just been added and pushed through the loop. What evidence is there that this is actually a neckorder?

-3 Back to the board at the start of this topic: it shows a neckorder/female brooch/award-with-suspension-loop, but what evidence is there that this is actually a pre may 1945 item? Im quite sceptical if it comes to vet stories as it wouldn't be the first time a vet has acquired a few items himself during the past 70 years. which brings us back to the qquestion: when was this board exactly made? Is this award-with-loop an Original wartime item or not? Then what would it's purpose be? In my humble opinion the definitive answer can not be gotten from vets stories, they can point perhaps in a certain direction, but period paperwork would be much better.

-4 Lastly, if there is any vet acquired accompanying paperwork to these boards, how does it describe this 25 year cross then? Does such paperwork exist for this particular award?

This is a very interesting topic!

best regards,
Gaston

ps: this topic has now more discussions running through eachother (about the NSDAP25 year cross, about the German Order, about vets stories, about vets finds...), hope it doesn't get too messy as this can become a real good discussion.

Gaston

Your main interest seems to be that "female" issue cross. There have been a number of fine discussions involving the 25 year NSDAP LS and especially the issue of a female version. This thread http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ghlight=female specifically discusses the issue and features some comments by Chris A. I think trying to divide this thread into numerous sub-topics will be problematic.

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