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David Hiorth

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Desk Eagle - opinions?

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    #16
    Originally posted by Military View Post
    Hi, I dont have any more photos as the eagle does not belong to me.
    What I would like to see is a discussion whether this eagle is recognised as legit as I've never come across such a variant having full markings.

    What are your thoughts?

    Mil
    I don't think anyone really knows the answer and there is no definitive study on these things really, maybe a good thing?.

    If I had to hip shoot I would say the bird would be good but somehow has no finish at all. Generally there are ways to look at these pieces and certain things that help in authentication, with this piece those options are off the table. Looks like a white metal cast on a base that is consistent with other examples but not consistent with other Nuremberg style adlers which is a good thing I guess.

    I cannot say with 100% certainty so just one of those pieces that make life difficult. The value of course is greatly diminished without the finish but it is what it is. The RZM number is listed and known but every time I go looking for that I have to search 5 forums and never bothered to make hard copies. However, they can be marked and unmarked and there is really no set standard.

    Best,

    Kris

    Comment

      #17
      What I'm surprised is that the maker HB (H.H. van Beusekom) or M3/28 usually marks its pieces as HB on its own and I've never seen such a desk eagle being so superfluously marked.

      The quality of sanded surfaces also look raw and I would expect a more refined / polished surface or it would never have made the RZM standards. If it was a non-RZM item, there might not have any proper quality control and perhaps acceptable as a private purchase, but not an RZM piece like this. The details of the talons look poor. Sure this rings some bells? Just my thoughts.

      Mil

      Comment

        #18
        Originally posted by Military View Post
        What I'm surprised is that the maker HB (H.H. van Beusekom) or M3/28 usually marks its pieces as HB on its own and I've never seen such a desk eagle being so superfluously marked.

        The quality of sanded surfaces also look raw and I would expect a more refined / polished surface or it would never have made the RZM standards. If it was a non-RZM item, there might not have any proper quality control and perhaps acceptable as a private purchase, but not an RZM piece like this. The details of the talons look poor. Sure this rings some bells? Just my thoughts.

        Mil
        mil, i tend to agree with you ,those file marks on the wreath seem pretty rough ,etc ...too bad we can"t get better picks ,...would have liked to see some of bottom of base ...

        Comment

          #19
          I noticed those marks on the reverse of the wreath, too, Mil, though they don't seem to appear on the obverse. Didn't know if they were intended to be texture marks or what! Thanks for mentioning that. The hobby would obviously benefit from someone with wide experience of desk and presentation award eagles to publish a reference book on the subject.

          And to Kris: there are two reference works on RZM codes that are mainstays of my library --

          "Handbook of RZM Codes, Vol. 1: Metal," by C.R. Davis, published circa 1970 by Runic Press, Houston TX, plus its "Addendum;" both long out of print. I am not aware that there were additional volumes published by this author covering the other RZM code groups.

          "A Collector's Guide to the RZM Marks of the NSDAP: Metal Badges, Uniform Fittings, Daggers, Buckles and Meeting Pins," by Stephen Lautens, originally published in 1995, Third Edition published in 2004 by Golden Pheasant Press, Toronto, Canada.

          Each of these reference works contains material not found in the other. As always, I hope these comments are helpful.

          Br. James

          Comment

            #20
            There's a possibility that those file marks on the base of the tail surround the wreath might be caused by accident, but I cannot fathom how that can happen since the other parts of the artefact are raised, therefore protecting the surrounding wreath. I can only assume that this was left as it is when manufactured. There are also hairline cracks on the base of the tail, as well as on the reverse of the body itself.

            If this was a "proper" RZM piece, then surely we should see evidence of it being offered in catalogs such as those by Assmann?

            Mil

            Comment

              #21
              Here is an offering that is my own. This is alike to the Military offering abeit mine has the original gilt/bronze finish and also with a manufacture's mark and RZM marking. Mine is also similar or the same as the piece attributed to (Peter) Manzie. Also, make note that the base size and color on Manzie's and Military's offering are the same as mine.

              John
              Attached Files
              Last edited by John Pepera; 09-13-2012, 08:05 PM.

              Comment

                #22
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                Attached Files

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                  #23
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                  Last edited by John Pepera; 09-13-2012, 08:06 PM.

                  Comment

                    #24
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                    Attached Files

                    Comment

                      #25
                      Originally posted by Br. James View Post

                      And to Kris: there are two reference works on RZM codes that are mainstays of my library --

                      "Handbook of RZM Codes, Vol. 1: Metal," by C.R. Davis, published circa 1970 by Runic Press, Houston TX, plus its "Addendum;" both long out of print. I am not aware that there were additional volumes published by this author covering the other RZM code groups.

                      "A Collector's Guide to the RZM Marks of the NSDAP: Metal Badges, Uniform Fittings, Daggers, Buckles and Meeting Pins," by Stephen Lautens, originally published in 1995, Third Edition published in 2004 by Golden Pheasant Press, Toronto, Canada.

                      Each of these reference works contains material not found in the other. As always, I hope these comments are helpful.

                      Br. James
                      Mr. James,

                      Thank you much and most helpful and was unaware of these and do not have to reach for these lists often but lately more often. Thank you.

                      Best,

                      Kris

                      Comment

                        #26
                        Originally posted by Military View Post

                        If this was a "proper" RZM piece, then surely we should see evidence of it being offered in catalogs such as those by Assmann?

                        Mil
                        These are catalog pieces, most of them are and they could be had in shops but not necessarily Assmann, clearly this is not made by Assmann and I cannot recall one being made by Assmann in hand.

                        I cant say I know why some are RZM marked and others are not, but the birds themselves in many cases are original with and without the marks, and with variant birds and bases. Would not over complicate it as there are a ton of models in the catalogs many of which I have not seen in person but would recognize on sight, so who the hell knows how their marked.

                        Kris

                        Comment

                          #27
                          Any thoughts on my piece with the mobile swastika...this has been added and is in a different type of metal? The piece is unmarked, but exactly the same style as Mr. Manzies.

                          Comment

                            #28
                            Wessel,

                            How about posting a clearer upfront shot of the swastika area?

                            Mil

                            Comment

                              #29
                              Here's a front and back. Any comments would be welcome.
                              Attached Files

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                                #30
                                Here's others in more natural light.
                                Attached Files

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