Early SS/SA Cap Eagle RZM Mark

[John R.]

Maybe they are all the same and the angle of the photos are tricking my eyes, not sure.

John

[stonemint]

Nice thread and well-researched. IMHO, the large 55mm State eagle (most commonly seen on Reichspost visors) did not come out until 1938 (the year most uniform changes occurred to all civil organisations). I am looking for photographic evidence of wear before then, so please post if you have any.

The smaller State eagle (with a 45 mm wingspan) is most commonly found on Forstdienst visors, as well as visors for civilians attached to the Luftwaffe (ie, firemen, doormen, and elevator operators). IMO, the 45mm came out in 1938 as well, simply because I have yet to see any photographic evidence of wear of it in 1937 (however, M-36 political eagles are commonly mistaken for the Civil/State 45 & 55mm eagles in photos).

So, the changes I would make to this chart would be to call the M-36S the "M-38 45mm" and the M-36L the "M-38 55mm". I would also call the Political Eagle labelled as "M-37" an "M-36", as these were specifically authorized for the Form 3 NSDAP Political visors in 1936 per the RZM.

[Military]

John, Thanks for posting the images. They will serve as a good reference.
We need to revise the taxonomy once there is agreement in arranging and naming the eagles. At this point it's confusing.

Mil

[Jean-Claude]

Great HJ Marine picts John! For me, no doubt that the eagles shown in your picts of posts 24 to 28 inclusively are M-27 pattern eagles: they all have the same length to height ratio (which is different for all NSDAP eagles except the M-36 & M-37 but these 2 face in different directions anyway) and mostly the wing shape and the black painted swastika is typical for M-27 (M-34 has silver swas on black background inside wreath and M-36 to M-39 are not painted). Not sure about the colour though as Marine SA supposively wore a gold bird like the KM so HJ may have done the same but I've never seen a cap and picts are B/W so impossible to say even though they do appear of a lighter shade than I would expect for gold.

However I have seen a few credible gold M-27 for sale and it is pictured in the Assmann catalog reprint so it did exist. It must be remembered that until the BEAMTE type eagle in gold and silber was introduced for Government applications (1938 according to Stonemint even though James says this Assmann catalog reprint dates from 1937 ???) the gold M-27 was also worn by some government/non-party organizations. So Marine SA & HJ wearing gold M-27 eagles is at least possible.

As far as I can judge from the picts your post 29 shows an M-37 (left facing) based on the shape (and lack of colour in the swaz or wreath area) but the one in post 29 appears to be regular (highly vaulted) Heere or KM eagle because the swaz wreath size/proportion (smaller) and the wing tip shape (more pointed) is different from M-37 or M-39 NSDAP eagle configuration but compatible to 2nd model (M-37) Heer and KM eagles.

Thanks for the picts

Regards

JC

[John Pepera]

Hat eagles

Contrary to thoughts or proclamations that these eagles were not worn on SS head gear, here is a veteran derived SS enlisted hat with such.

John

[Military]

Hi John,

I understand that that particular cap eagle was worn as a transitional SS insignia for a very short period of time, after the M27 and M34 style.

Please correct me if I'm mistaken.

Mil

[John Pepera]

Hat eagles

This one is marked RZM 52

[Garry M.]

Just a little more on the Marine-HJ eagles John:

1934
page 85 of the 1934 book 'Bekleidung und Austrüstung der HJ' (which is a more in-depth version of the same book previously published on the 13th of December 1933 after standardisation of the uniforms had taken place) describes the hat eagle worn by the Marine-HJ as being 0,3mm brass with silver finish and with either a pin or splints to the reverse. There is no mention of a gold type. The badge is pictured and it matches the M27 type shown by Military in post 18.

1936
The 1936 RZM manufacturing instructions for Marine-HJ headwear show that the eagle was still being worn by all and the instruction specifically mentions "the new eagle". Again, no mention of a gold version.

1938
A 1938 instruction showing the new uniform regulations for all sections of the Hitler Youth shows that the wearing of the eagle had been discontinued for the normal members and lower leaders within the Marine-HJ. The effective date for the removal of the eagle from their headwear was the 1st of November 1938. Middle and higher leaders continued to wear the eagle in silver.

1939
In the book 'Vorschriftenhandbuch der HJ' (VHB) from 1942 there is a description of the Marine-HJ higher leader visor and the wording is exactly the same as that shown in the 1938 instruction with the exception that the eagle for higher leaders is now described as being gold. This must be a revision to the 1938 instruction made necessary by the introduction of the new political leader eagle in 1939.

Hope this helps in some way.

Garry
www.hj-research.com/forum

[wilhelm Saris]

The 5.6 x 3.6 cm silvered (leichtmetall and silvered Cupal) eagle for the Winter- und Sommermütze was introduced in late 1936 for the Postal services visored cap; the somewhat smaller 4.7 x 3.1 cm was for the so-called Baschlikmütze. The eagle should have three prongs; for the so-called visored cap for Telegraphenarbeiter the eagle should have four prongs. The eagle does look to its right wing: state form (to its left wing is political form). They were shown in number 21 from the "Uniformen-Markt" from December 15, 1936 as "new cap insignia" (nach Mustern Originalgrösse"). Also mentioned in the "Amtsblatt des Reichspostministeriums".

The same eagle was also in use by customs with three sizes: 5.6-5.7, 4.7-5.0 and about 3.5-3.7 cm. Material as before: silvered = land-customs; golden color water-customs. Introduced for customs August 14, 1937, to be worn with Schirmmütze (visored cap for the walking-out uniform); Feldmütze (visored field-cap in style for the visored cap for the walking-out uniform) and Wintermütze (the visored field-cap for winter). Noted in the "Amtsblatt der Reichsfinanzverwaltung"

The here mentioned eagles are shown in a 1937-version Wilhelm Deumer Katalog. The 1936 pattern for the Postal services was with orders from May 30, 1938 also valid for the forestry-organization. The development for the eagles for the German railroad-organization I will include in my coming railroad eagles booklet: first the little brother and later the engine and car eagles!!

[juoneen]

from Mr. Glysons photo archive

I think mr gylsens photo shows the earlier eagle and ss hat , as I have an original all brown version same as the guy is wearing , except no differentiation on piping, so the period for this wear of Eagle and hat is likely early 30s when ss and SA were together for a short period , and likely just prior to the night of the long knives. Hope he doesn't mind, but it does pertain to this issue, and needs revisited. I have never shown my hat after being called a liar by mr. manzie (who by the way doesn't accept facts over his very large ego) for posting my ss 380 /40 skull that had provenance I got myself from a vets attic in 1969 before they ever reproduced. Thats ok...when he apologises to me publicly on the forum on this thread for doing so , and accepts my truth as truth, and not his imagined fiction ,I may add the hat here also for all to see, but not until, as that was a slander to my reputation and credibility here. I do have a shot of the top eagle I will add now, but not the hat in full, as the hat is so rare I doubt there are two left in the world as the one I own. Good subject anyway .
and my eagle on the all brown early ss hat exactly the same style as the one glyson has in his archive he posted here several years ago , and same exact hat as I own as described above.(note some of the remaining Gold wash on the exact same eagle as on the hat in the photo is still showing )

[John R.]

Just a little more on the Marine-HJ eagles John:

1934
page 85 of the 1934 book 'Bekleidung und Austrüstung der HJ' (which is a more in-depth version of the same book previously published on the 13th of December 1933 after standardisation of the uniforms had taken place) describes the hat eagle worn by the Marine-HJ as being 0,3mm brass with silver finish and with either a pin or splints to the reverse. There is no mention of a gold type. The badge is pictured and it matches the M27 type shown by Military in post 18.

1936
The 1936 RZM manufacturing instructions for Marine-HJ headwear show that the eagle was still being worn by all and the instruction specifically mentions "the new eagle". Again, no mention of a gold version.

1938
A 1938 instruction showing the new uniform regulations for all sections of the Hitler Youth shows that the wearing of the eagle had been discontinued for the normal members and lower leaders within the Marine-HJ. The effective date for the removal of the eagle from their headwear was the 1st of November 1938. Middle and higher leaders continued to wear the eagle in silver.

1939
In the book 'Vorschriftenhandbuch der HJ' (VHB) from 1942 there is a description of the Marine-HJ higher leader visor and the wording is exactly the same as that shown in the 1938 instruction with the exception that the eagle for higher leaders is now described as being gold. This must be a revision to the 1938 instruction made necessary by the introduction of the new political leader eagle in 1939.

Hope this helps in some way.

Garry
www.hj-research.com/forum

Thanks Garry. That is great information plus providing the references is much appreciated.

John

[John R.]

Here is one in my collection, recently obtained from Bunker Militaria. There is a RZM mark under the prong on the reverse of the eagle. I cannot find a number so far, but interestingly, the bottom prong is soldered flat to the badge back. No idea why. It seems to have been done in the factory, but the reason is unknown to me.

While it appears gold, it is not. It is silver colored. I think one must be a bit careful with these if looking for the so-called Marine SA versions to be sure they are in fact gold toned and not just an effect from a camera flash.

John

[Military]

John,

I'll try to see if I can dig out mine and identify the number.
I think it's usually marked with an RZM and a 72 for these stamped pin variants.
The gold ones are hard to find, and really as good as gold.

Mil

[John R.]

Bring this very interesting thread back to the top with my MHJ Berlin 13 cap (Thanks to Marc V.).

Note First Pattern MHJ cap tally, no RZM tag but personal tag with boy's name and unit inside cap. He also scratched his name into the sweat band.

So I think it is most likely a cap from the period Jan 1933 to Jan 1936.

The eagle is a M-27 eagle as would be expected and the membership pin is prong back. The pin on the white removable top is pin back.

John

[John R.]

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