Early SS/SA Cap Eagle RZM Mark

[Jean-Claude]

Hi Mil,

Wait for others to chime in 'cause I could be full of it (it wouldnt be a first!) but I still think the bird types/picture sequence in my previous post is correct

"1. It might be my mistake that the 1939 piece might be wrong as it has a gold wash and intended for High Level Political Leaders?"

>SA used silver version of 1939 pattern (except marine SA) Gold 1939 pattern eagle was mostly used by Political leaders with wreath style shown in picture 1

"2. The arrangement of 1936 / 1937 eagle is also different from yours?"

>To me what you show as a 1936 pattern is in fact a 1937 pattern (James also mentions in his post that the 36 pattern was the only eagle facing right) and what you show as a 1937 pattern is not technically a political eagle at all its a 1936 pattern eagle (small version) intended for wear on governement/administrative (beamte) type caps (Post, Forest administration etc etc) and exists in 2 sizes and 2 colours shown in picture 2 (missing the small gold but they are fairly common so I'l get one eventually). In practice however it was probably used as an M36 by some (just like you see SS caps with Heeres eagles) and is often claimed to be an M36 (the shortest lived version) NSDAP eagle but its not. IMO thats why the true 1936 Party eagle (facing right) was quickly reverted back to a left facing the next year because the party boys didnt exactly like the idea of being confused with government admin types (post, Reichbahn, police, customs, forestry and all uniformed goverment including diplomatic corps all wore variations of right facing eagles)

"3. We couldn't decide which year to assign the last SS eagle marked "??" - James has explained to me at length that he classes it as M1936, which I believe he will add on to this."

> The gold 1939 is a very nice variation Political leader (what is the maker/RZM # please? I'll look for one of these!) and the "??" is the ss pattern eagle introduced in 1936 when they adopted their own bird to the best of my knowledge

Take care

JC

[Military]

(Posted for James as requested): As for the question-marked item -- the SS cap eagle -- I have long referred to this eagle as the M-1936, and this for the reason that Andrew Mollo in the first volume of his six-volume treatise on the "Uniforms of the SS," on p.17 states that "In 1936 the SS version of the national emblem was introduced, and was worn on the upper left sleeve of the tunic and overcoat." While this quote does not directly refer to the SS cap eagle per se -- and I can't find any date reference from Mollo as to exactly when the well-known and unique SS cap eagle came into service -- I further checked my set of the RPT journals ("Reichstagung in Nürnberg") for 1935 and 1936 to see what the SS was actually wearing at those two September events. Himmler and his staff was not prepared for the aftermath of the 'Night of Long Knives' in terms of his soon-to-be-achieved autonomy from the SA, so it took the SS a while to adopt its own versions of things such as the cap eagle, which the SS had originally shared with the PL, the SA and the NSKK under a unified scheme of Political Organizations of the NSDAP. We know that the PL adopted the M-1934 cap eagle as a successor to the M-1927 design, but that eagle only lasted two years until it was succeeded by the even shorter-lived M-1936 Political cap eagle, and neither of those post-1927 cap eagles was uniformly adopted by all the political service members. This quasi-adoption of the M-1934 cap eagle is borne out in the event photos taken at the 1935 RPT (one cannot trust the fidelity of portrait photos appearing in any of the RPT journals since they were often and obviously re-touched, but the event photos were actually taken there and then and constitute a true record). At the 1935 RPT Himmler was photographed early in the gathering wearing an M-1927 Political cap eagle on his black SS peaked cap, and another photo of him taken later in the week appears to show him wearing what might be the M-1934 Political cap eagle. At the 'Consecration of New Standards' at the 1935 RPT, an SS-Mann is seen wearing the black SS peaked cap with the M-1927 Political cap eagle, while photos of Julius Schaub at that RPT seem to show him wearing the M-1934 Political cap eagle. This indicates to me that the newly-designed and unique SS national emblem in the form of a cap eagle was not yet in effect by September of 1935. However, the 1936 RPT journal tells a story of universal acceptance of the new SS cap eagle and I could not find one photo of any SS member wearing anything but the new design at that year's RPT. That was in early September of 1936, and so I accept Mollo's inference that the new SS cap eagle was to be known as the 'SS M-1936.' Sorry for the long-winded explanation but I think the question does deserve detailed attention.

Regards,
BR James

[Military]

updated...

Regards,
Mil

[Br. James]

Many thanks for posting my note to you, Mil...my copy must have gotten lost in the PM files. And your revised chart of cap eagles is most helpful; I hope we can find a way of keeping it available under Political Organizations and not just in this thread, so that future reference can be easily made to it.

Br. James

[Military]

Hopefully this can be pinned for future reference.
I will try putting a more comprehensive set of images available.

Thanks, James.

Mil

[Jean-Claude]

One last attempt before we boldly go were so many have gone before and post another inaccurate reference to help future generations of collectors be even more confused than we were....

What you describe as M36L (Large) and M36S (Small) are not NSDAP eagles intended for wear by NSDAP, SA or any other party organizations they are administrative/government (Beamte) eagles. And if you intend to persue that avenue you might as well go all the way and include the M36T (Tiny) which is the smallest size of this variant also available in gold or silver colour for use on some TR public service headgear.

Yes those eagles probably came about in 1936 as another round of uniform/regalia changes was happening; yes most are RZM marked but so were some Luftwaffe dagger hanger hardware at a time when manufacturers were still confused as to what was RZM legislated and what wasnt! Yes they they have probably been found on some legitimate unmessed with period headdress and yes dealers have been describing them as M36 NSDAP/SA eagles but they are not party style M36 eagles and the differences are obvious.

Attached are 2 not so hot scans of pages from a Assmann catalog reprint. The first scan is a page of ADMINISTRATIVE cap eagles and your "M36L" is listed as article # 24866, your "M36S" is item 24308 and the "M36T"(should you want add it to your family) is #24840. Gold or silver specimens are same # and application/use is very clearly described at top and left of page...

The second scan shows another page from the same catalogue where the true M36 NSDAD/SA right facing style eagle appears with a different # (24430) so it is a different bird. Its interesting to note that it is shown with the M39 version (25321) in silver but the M37 is nowhere to be seen. The M39 (25321) is described as SA-Mutzenabzeichen the true M36 (24430) is described as PL-Mutzenabzeichen but both are silver specimens and only available through the RZM (not for open sale) as it should be for true party stuff

JC

[Br. James]

Great information all 'round, JC -- countless thanks for providing your expertise! I had forgotten that the Assmann Catalog of c.1937 had those descriptive and helpful pages for our reference; thanks for reminding us! That edition of the Assmann Catalog also includes a range of cap eagles: the M-27, M-34 and the SS M-36 in particular, which establishes that all of these eagles were still being sold in 1937. This is just the sort of information so necessary in building up an accurate account of the 'procession of eagles' of the NSDAP!

Br. James

[Jean-Claude]

No problem James

Very far from an expert but its hard to dispute period documentation (even if its only a reprint!)and I just love birds! Because the eagles vary a bit in design from one maker to the next ( see my gold & silver large size BEAMTE M36 in post #16 which are obviously from different makers) what would be nice is to cross check the Assmann info with a catalogue from another supplier but I dont have any others to examine.

It might seem like splitting hair but I've always found it odd that people seem to lump all M36
right facing eagles into 1 mixed bag because to me, design wise they are very different and
the NSDAP M36 is a much shorter lived and rarer bird than its BEAMTE counterpart which had a life span of 9 years and can be found in a variety of metals and mounting systems as the fortunes of war changed.

Best regards

JC

[John R.]

Very interesting thead. I just wanted to post these two typical images of Marine Hitler Youth (MHJ) members. Of note, most photos I have seen where they are wearing a cap eagle, it is with the first pattern MHJ cap tally. This means the cap tallies of a style prior to 1936. After 1936, I find very few images where they are wearing an eagle above the membership badge and that is another style of cap tally.

I am assuming from what I am reading here is that it is the 1927 style but I have seen them in bronze and an aluminum finish which is not indicated in your eagle series.

I have seen claims where the bronze is supposedly Marine SA, but not sure where the evidence is for that assertion.

The boys can be seen wearing other styles of eagles too, but the types below are the most common.

John

[John R.]

2

[Military]

John,

Thanks for posting. Would you be able to provide a high resolution scan of just the insignia in particular for a closer look?

Mil

[John R.]

I cannot, although I own these images. This is the best I can do at 600 dpi. Here is another image, maybe this will help.

Again, there is variance in these cap eagles for the MHJ. Most are found on the Form 1 tallies but some can be found in rare cases on the Form 2 tallies after 1936.

Other eagles can also be found which I will post. Not sure which style from your series they are though.

This one from MarineHJ on this forum.

John

[John R.]

This appears to be the 1927 version although some of the above might be the 1934 version.

[John R.]

Here is a Form 1 that went out in 1936 but looks to me it has the 1934 eagle.

[John R.]

And now a Form 2 cap with what looks to me to be the 1934 eagle.