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    #31
    Electroplating is quick and relatively cheap, however it also looks cheap and wears off quickly due to its extremely thin nature. Fire gilding was used for higher level awards (and even for US Navy officer buttons, wings, at least up through the 1950s) because the finish is much richer and, due to its thickness and the chemical bond with the underlying metal, will last much longer than a plated finish. There is no problem using fire gilding to cover all surfaces of a piece--I'm not sure what your friend means.
    Erich
    Festina lente!

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      #32
      Thanks Erich, very helpful information. My friend was referring to how a GPB back plate could have been freely supported through the fire gilding process, thus enabling the mercury to burn off evenly and leave a unified gold surface. Wtih electroplating, all that needs to happen is for the object to be plated to be dropped into the liquid bath and the electric current does the rest. Perhaps the so-called breather hole played some part in the fire gilding process, if each back plate were to be strung onto a rod through the hole and thus the heat could circulate evenly around it? It wouldn't be an even application if the back plate were laying on a shelf of some sort, thus only exposing one surface...?

      Br. James

      Comment

        #33
        There are photos of a large GPB disassembled on the gold party badge forum here. You can see the enamel disk for the large badge is concave and hollow backed.

        Fire gilding uses vapor from burning off gold dissolved in mercury. It is not a liquid solution process. The hole serves no purpose in gilding. The back hole is a gas vent so hot gasses do not damage the enamel disk when the solder cools and contracts along with the trapped gasses beneath.

        I've never seen a Fuess badge apart, but it may be they are not concave and so there is no gap behind them to trap hot gas, and so no vent is required.

        Stephen

        My Gold Party Badge website: http://pages.interlog.com/~sjl/GPB/

        Comment

          #34
          Interesting link Stephen. Thank you for directing us there. I have visited that forum in the past, but failed to see your posting.

          From a casual comparison of Fuess and non-Fuess assembled 24mm badges, it is obvious that the center discs provided to Fuess have very little curvature, supporting the theory that they are either slightly concave or not concave at all, eliminating the necessity of a vent hole.

          I thought fire guilding used a paste that with the application of heat discharged toxic mecuric vapors, leaving the gold residue. Reading about the procedure, I can only wonder why such work was done to create a fire guilding finish, for such badges produced on a relative mass basis for very little money. Electro-platting would seem to be the most economical and efficient method of providing the gold finish.

          Is it out of the question to think that those badges with no maker might perhaps have been assembled by another jeweler besides Fuess or Deschler?

          Comment

            #35
            For those who find Fire gilding a bit too exotic and a thing of the past

            http://www.fire-gilding.com/Willkommen.html


            It's not that difficult for a craftsman, so I'm pretty sure they used it for te GPB instaed of electro plating

            The piece was first cleaned with a brush. After that it was apllied with mercury water by using a small brush. Than the Amalgam was applied with a sort of wooden stick/brush. The entire copper piece looks then like shiny like silver. Than they start to burn it with a flame torch. Then you see, how part by part, the shiny silver appereance turns into a rich golden color.

            Regards, Wim
            Freedom is not for Free

            Comment

              #36
              Wim, I have seen the web site you posted. I am not asserting that the procedure was exotic or a procedure out of date. I am considering its practicality in the mass production of 50000+ badges for a reasonable price.

              Comment

                #37
                What a wonderful contribution is made by Stephen (sjl) -- WOW am I impressed! If it is at all possible, the owner of that deconstructed and ground-dug GPB #45853 should be encouraged to take the pieces to a competent and knowledgeable jeweler locally and ask that jeweler three questions:

                1. What process was employed to attach the enamel piece to the back plate -- since the back plate is open to see, a jeweler should be able to easily tell whether the residue around the inside lip on the back plate is of solder or of a glue compound;
                2. In either case, how would the adhesive material -- solder or glue -- been applied (injection, surface application??); and
                3. What sort of gilt plating process was used on the back plate to give it its finish? If there isn't enough finish left on this piece for the jeweler to examine, then perhaps this badge's owner could also take along a completed GPB so that an accurate determination can be made by the jeweler.

                This is a great opportunity to learn about what we have been discussing from a professional jeweler! Jewelry items employing these processes must certainly still be made today; even the GPB fakers seem to manage casting a brass back plate and adhering an enamel roundel and a pin plate to it!

                What is sad is that this particular example -- GPB #45853 -- is an identified piece which had fallen onto hard times...and under hard ground! I trust that it was found in this deconstructed condition and not taken apart by the new owner.

                Br. James

                Comment

                  #38
                  One further comment, if I may: it is great to see the reverse of a GPB's enamel disc, since it clearly shows us how the obverse was made! The design stamped onto the reverse of the brass disc blank came through onto the obverse, making tiny channels to guide and separate the various enamels as they were being applied. This is the same way that cloisonne pieces are made and fired. Great stuff!!

                  Br. James

                  Comment

                    #39
                    Originally posted by JoeW View Post
                    Wim, I have seen the web site you posted. I am not asserting that the procedure was exotic or a procedure out of date. I am considering its practicality in the mass production of 50000+ badges for a reasonable price.
                    Hi Joe,

                    I guess it is not possible nowadays. But everthing was different in the past. If you see the pictures of how the assembled Iron Crosses -It think that was more time consuming then making the GPB. The fire gilding proces is basicly a form of two times painting (one time with mercury water and one time with the amalgam)and then heating the badge with a torch.

                    I'm pretty sure the High See Fleet badges, for instance,were made in the same
                    maner. The giding on those wreaths looks like gold paint. And that's right because they painted the amalgam on it, burnt it and there was a nice deep rich coloring gold.

                    Concerning the disk to wreath connection it is IMO simply a matter of soft soldering. And I guess the same method was used to fix the rifles on a HJ shooter badge and the swastika disk on a mother cross.

                    The concave form is no problem. If the flux is applied and the piece is heated correctly the solder spreads to all area's -also the edges- and that is enough to stick properly on the wreath part.

                    Regards, Wim
                    Last edited by Wim Vangossum; 06-02-2011, 11:45 AM.
                    Freedom is not for Free

                    Comment

                      #40
                      I think they would have used a two-piece (male/female) stamp to insure the detail on the obverse side.

                      Comment

                        #41
                        Originally posted by JoeW View Post
                        I think they would have used a two-piece (male/female) stamp to insure the detail on the obverse side.
                        I agree with that.


                        Regards, Wim
                        Freedom is not for Free

                        Comment

                          #42
                          Mercuric gilding has been banned for several years as the fumes are
                          toxic.(OSHA) just my two cents.
                          Even with good fuming cabinets it is a no no.
                          Seiler.

                          Comment

                            #43
                            Our NHS still issue Mercury Amalgam tooth fillings as standard unless like I do for my family you pay private for white fillings
                            Anyway back to the subject in hand, the badge now resides with me and I have shot a couple of closer pictures.
                            I'm certainly not an expert or placed to have a strong opinion but it looks under 20x's magnification that there is a very fine and irregular metal residue on the area that held the disk. That could be from either the small blob of solder or the metal on the reverse of the disk that came away from the disk when it was removed.
                            Anyway its a badge that has produced much discussion!
                            Br.James maybe you could place the SS officers name up here on the thread and hopefully someone might have some information on him that I can place with the badge.
                            Attached Files

                            Comment

                              #44
                              The most details I can get ........
                              Attached Files

                              Comment

                                #45
                                Jon scooped up this little GPB objekt de'art while still being discussed !
                                Outrageous!
                                ;>)

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