Mothers cross - ever seen this before?

[bnz41]

Yes a post war copy for sure!

And not even a good one!

[colin davie]

Josef Fueß it has been 2 years of waiting for this proof you have that the majority of Mothers Crosses on the market are post war. You have told me on a couple of occasions in the 2 years since this thread started you have this proof, but every time I ask you to provide it you don't.

I have 3 or 4 Mothers crosses for sale just now and if they are fake as you propose I would like to know.

C

[Röhm1929]

Josef Fueß it has been 2 years of waiting for this proof you have that the majority of Mothers Crosses on the market are post war. You have told me on a couple of occasions in the 2 years since this thread started you have this proof, but every time I ask you to provide it you don't.

I have 3 or 4 Mothers crosses for sale just now and if they are fake as you propose I would like to know.

C

Not a Mothers' Cross but it looks like someone is asking you the same question Colin:

http://www.hj-research.com/forum/f28...er-badge-6439/

[colin davie]

The owner of that website takes pleasure in banning me mate, he invites me back so I can be banned again... so I won't be back there, not even to see what you're talking about. You have to ask yourself about the honour of a place that talks about someone when they can't answer back.

Sorry, but after today's events on here I won't be getting involved with Jo Rivett on here either. More than one way to skin a cat.
C

[Röhm1929]

The owner of that website takes pleasure in banning me mate, he invites me back so I can be banned again... so I won't be back there, not even to see what you're talking about. You have to ask yourself about the honour of a place that talks about someone when they can't answer back.

Sorry, but after today's events on here I won't be getting involved with Jo Rivett on here either. More than one way to skin a cat.
C

Strange... this is your account isn't it?

http://www.hj-research.com/forum/members/hohum/

Doesn't look like you are banned...? Whatever, not my beef but it seems fair to me that if you demand proof for something then you should reciprocate when someone else asks you to do the same but hey, that's just me. Each to his own.

[Jo Rivett]

You have told me on a couple of occasions in the 2 years since this thread started you have this proof, but every time I ask you to provide it you don't.

Dear Colin
You will need to jog my memory, i cannot remember communicating with you on a "couple" of occasions - about the Mothers Crossl. In fact i have done my best to stay out of your way - and after yesterdays episode with you, i will continue to. Maybe you have me confused with someone else? It can happen...

You have to ask yourself about the honour of a place that talks about someone when they can't answer back.

Look in the mirror Colin, and ask this question about "honor" to the person you see staring back at you.

I am busy with two projects at present. One of them includes the fake Mothers Cross`s. I started to converse with the owner of the Mothers Cross website, a nice chap called Rick, about this "dilema" around January this year, but had to put our conversations on ice due to other obligations. In fact it was only a day or 2 ago that i mailed Rick and told him that i had not forgotten about him or our in-depth conversations, and that i would resume them asap.

Now, the owner of that website, has put together a wonderful "aid" for those interested in the MC, and is a most pleasant individual to converse with. Open minded, eager to learn more, and has quite an impressive amount of background info/items. His emails are long, interesting, and do not contain the abusive, baiting, arrogance that your post on WAF yesterday did. He is also not one to chop and pick pieces out of my mails and then twist them to suit his own childish agenda.

To be honest, if i am going to share any information on the mass reproduction of the Mothers Cross post war, before it is published, then i would be much more comfortable sharing it with someone like Rick.

[colin davie]

Thanks for reinstating my account Garry, but taking on moderators is a hiding to nothing.
Not there, not here, not playing.
Looking forward to the book Jo.
C

[jabnus]

This topic is now three years old and a LOT has changed since then and any new readers should please take this in account when reading the topic.

I've been reading Colin Davie's recent posts with both amazement and disbelief. The arguments posted by Jo for the past few years are real eyeopeners and are very hard to deny for anyone REALLY interested in the truth behind the items we like and collect here on the forum. Mr Davie appears however to be on sort of crusade to try and challenge both the HJ forum and Jo, and i wonder what his real intentions are to do so? I wanted to reply yesterday to the now closed topic about the HJ Ehrenzeichen for Verdiente Ausländer badge but it was unfortunately already closed. To my surprise i just stumbled over this old topic again and seeing my own old posts (with wrong information) i feel like i should reply too to correct a few things.


When this topic started in 2010 i couldn't believe my eyes and what Jo typed. As some of you know im really into Mothercrosses and i couldn't believe what Jo typed. I had almost forgotten about this topic (thought it was part of the big motherscross topic), but now in 2013, after almost four years i have to admit: i was wrong and Jo was right!. I suppose it's easy to look the other way when someone else confronts you that you are wrong in everything you THINK to know, but in the end it's the only correct (gentleman) behavior to admit your mistakes. Only he who admits his own mistakes is a great man. Well, im not a great man, but my only goal has Always been to find out the correct historical truth about the items i collect and again: i have to give Jo a lot of credit for opening my eyes. Unfortunately im not old enough to have experienced the old days of collecting in the 60s/70s/80s and when i started collecting on the nineties my first years where filled with low value items, only the past decade since having a decent job the slightly bigger pieces arrived. It appears a lot of the knowledge that the old time collectors had about fakes and reproductions in past decades is now lost and many of those old fakes ended even up in the old reference books as real. I remember how shocked i was when seeing reproduction catalogs with motherscrosses, but yes, many many fakes have been made post war and it is near impossible to distinguish them from the wartime originals.

What Jo is making us aware of when talking (and posting on the forums) about Microforensics is what those fakes are and as far as i am concerned he has taught a lot of collectors already about a lot of fakes.

Many of the old time collectors who have these fakes in their collections will feel bad when they read about the unmasking of another fake. Whether it is a coloured NSKK badge, a HJ honour badge with oak leaves or now the here discussed HJ Ehrenzeichen for Verdiente Ausländer badge. Whether we like it or not, the hobby has been polluted for the past decades and MANY MANY MANY fake items have found their way into many collections. As Wim van Gossum said somewhere before: if Jo makes someone feel uneasy about a certain piece in their collection it is often because he is so often right about fake items. Many collectors rather stick to believing an untrue truth as real because else it would mean their expensive items are not good. As hurtfull as this may be, we need to face this and clean the hobby again. It will take a long time, some tears and regrets for money spent, and probably a few more (verbal) fights like is now taking place again here on the forum, but in the end the truth will be known again. It has no use to hold on to the old mistakes about fakes. Also many authenticating methodes are hopelessly wrong and should not be defended so much anymore. Vet acquired items mean absolutely NOTHING, as does the old year when a badge was bought or from whoever it came. Microforensics wil reveal it immediatly if a badge or medal is a fake.

I also read about the Hj forum and how bad it is according to some people with certain agenda's, and admit that untill recently i hardly ever visited there too (mainly also because i don't collect much HJ and thought it was only about HJ items). It is quite surprising to see the level of seriousness and expertise that forum has and it appears to have a certain pioneering role that sadly the WAF forums here often (still?)lacks. I can advice anyone to register there and read and participate. The old days of collecting are over and certain people who state things as Colin Davie does can not keep up with those statements anymore without posting EVIDENCE to back up their claims.


Jo, i look forward to the findings on the Mothercross fakes you are working on. I know Wim and Rick and they are nice guys who are trying to understand the truth and have their collecting heart at the right pace too. I only wish we weren't so often competitors in obtaining nice motherscross items


best regards,
Gaston

[Jo Rivett]

Cheers Gaston, You sound like a mini-me

...not only is he constantly meddling, he is also now cloning people.... burn him..burn him

I had to learn the hard way too, and still am in some instances. I put the fakes to good use though - or i try to.

[juoneen]

The damaged MM in frame #2 is one of three I have that are similarly missing all or partial enameling,and all with no centers (I only showed the one when I posted that one sometime back) and they are all the same configuration as frame two with the ring, and offset slot for the center positioning....I agree that with all the different makers, there certainly must be different ways each may have manufactured the body of the medal to hold the center in position when the center is affixed , and several may be the ones shown here.(one was containing JB weld though , as it must have been damaged , and jb weld used to not only fix, but reaffix the center in lieu of glue). I have no idea where you will find the center you need to restore this one....but hope springs eternal...I would have left it as a post war denazified MM personally, but then we wouldn't have had all this banter, but that's why we are here, we all have the same things in common. .If and when I run into the other ones I have socked back somewhere, I will come back, and add them to this thread.

[juoneen]

here is another i just ran across, seems it fits the deschler style

Has a different center, but similar to the other one...just not solid like this one..

[jack1]

Is this book now in print.
Earlier in the thread it was said most party badges are fake.
So confused.