Hi,
Here's a first little and fast reply as im not at home at the moment.
I read about being "known" in a certain collecting area? Also about doing homework and exploring all kinds of period information? Well...im not claiming to know 100% everything, but besides many other collecting area's im a bit known for my motherscross collection and also have a few items which i consider one of a kind and definately unique in this area. As it is appearantly needed to show that one is serious (wasn't the WAF an open discussionforum?), i might also add then that in all humbleness im laying the last hands at my Mothers Cross book which i hope to finally publish in 2011 after many years of writing and researching. Hope this gives me the right to make a few comments here? Also ill try to add a few facts and figures...
There's many interesting things being said and shown here, but im not comfortable or convinced with everything that is being stated so hard.
Coming with facts i have a few myself and they don't add up to everything here. Not wanting to give away everything that i want to publish later, but keeping it factual we have the number of actual AWARDED crosses up untill the wars end and this was officially a little over 5 million!!!
Another fact is we have a HUGE list of dozens and dozens of makers (i can tell you i have a few surprises to show there as well).
The Mothers Cross is one of the most massively produced wartime medals (even more often than many massively produced Russian medals) and definately NOT a rare medal to find at all. Neither was it at any time after 1945.
Also i find the statement that it would be impossible to find an original "with proof of originality" a bit too fast typed... I have quite a few examples that came directly from families together WITH their accompanying documentation like citations, award ceremony invitation papers, wartimephoto's, etc. Not wanting to brag here, but maybe some collectors should have handled a few more themselves to know what to state here so hard? I am totally convinced of the crosses and variations i have gathered in my collecting years and that's quite a few...
In my humble opinion the fact that (many) medal makers continued making certain awards after the war is as Josef Fueß says sadly true. But...if we keep in mind a few other facts like the productionmethods of these crosses, their very high availability (over 5 million made during the war!) and the NEED for these medals which must have been low in the post war period, then i find it very hard to believe that they were en mass produced by the tens of thousands (or millions?) in the 50's, 60's, etc. Why would one make them in such quantities as the originals could at that time also easily be bought for that amount and were easily available?
A few more "facts" for those who don't know how the crosses were made: 160 by one person in one day was possible. Do you know how they were made? Pressing out the shape, enameling, heating in oven, finishing... i do think on a 8 hour workday a craftsman could make 200 or so if he wanted.
Another "fact" i very much disagree with is the "fact" that is being told here to explain the number of variations that could be found in many crosses. A true FACT is that we know of a very large number of makers during the war that produced them, we know of the time period they made crosses (about 6,5 years) and we know the total number of crosses that were made (i also have them divided over each year and most of the official awarding moments, also besides this there were also during the war a few unofficial awarding moments, which would elevate the number of over 5 million a bit more by some tens of thousands at least!). It is only a fact that most makers had many productions over a years long timeperiod and small differences did occur in the productionmethods.
Speaking of differences, im NOT comfortable with the different enamel patterns attributed to certain makers in the picture that is shown in this thread as there are by those same makers also different patterns known...
Speakign of more differences: the way the disc was attached to the cross is known to exist in many more forms. I know of at least ten different ones, varying of rectangular cut outs, triangular, round, startype, very little cut outs, stripes, etc etc All served the same purpose: to keep the disc at the right angle.
In conclusion: yes crosses were produced after the war, no doubt about that but MUCH more were officially produced and awarded than some people think!!! This was and is originally not such a scarce award as some people want others to think. Also i would estimate the number of post war crosses MUCH lower as can be read here.
Im not at a computer for the next few hours, but definately look forward to more factual information!
best regards,
Gaston
ps: since im giving away a few things in this reply, here's a few more interesting things to think about: Just like many other awards i can easily imagine big overstocks of perhaps hundreds or even thousands that were found after the war and ended up in dealer hands. We know of the wartime produced crosses in cheap warmetal in 1945, but...we also know of POST WAR AWARDED crosses in 1945!!!Yes that is right! We also know that many crosses were planned to be awarded in May 1945 but never were awarded due to the wars end. A very confusing time and no doubt that in the many roaring months (year?) before 1945 some makers made a very large stock for future awardings that did now not occur in 1945! What happened to these crosses? Wouldn't this influence the number of needed post war produced crosses as well? How about the Deschler hoard that was found a few years ago? I know and have handled quite a few other "hoard" found awards over the years, Ek's, kvk's, etc... Besides that we know that as Josef Fueß states some makers cheerfully kept on producing post war, definately not everything is as bad as some people want others for whatever reason to believe... Keeping the ORIGINAL KNOWN number of awared crosses in mind im 100% positively sure that it easily exceeds the number of post war produced ones!
pps: What some people think or state is their opinion and good right to type down here, but... facts never lie! Before shouting please keep it to things that can be proven!
Here's a first little and fast reply as im not at home at the moment.
I read about being "known" in a certain collecting area? Also about doing homework and exploring all kinds of period information? Well...im not claiming to know 100% everything, but besides many other collecting area's im a bit known for my motherscross collection and also have a few items which i consider one of a kind and definately unique in this area. As it is appearantly needed to show that one is serious (wasn't the WAF an open discussionforum?), i might also add then that in all humbleness im laying the last hands at my Mothers Cross book which i hope to finally publish in 2011 after many years of writing and researching. Hope this gives me the right to make a few comments here? Also ill try to add a few facts and figures...
There's many interesting things being said and shown here, but im not comfortable or convinced with everything that is being stated so hard.
Coming with facts i have a few myself and they don't add up to everything here. Not wanting to give away everything that i want to publish later, but keeping it factual we have the number of actual AWARDED crosses up untill the wars end and this was officially a little over 5 million!!!
Another fact is we have a HUGE list of dozens and dozens of makers (i can tell you i have a few surprises to show there as well).
The Mothers Cross is one of the most massively produced wartime medals (even more often than many massively produced Russian medals) and definately NOT a rare medal to find at all. Neither was it at any time after 1945.
Also i find the statement that it would be impossible to find an original "with proof of originality" a bit too fast typed... I have quite a few examples that came directly from families together WITH their accompanying documentation like citations, award ceremony invitation papers, wartimephoto's, etc. Not wanting to brag here, but maybe some collectors should have handled a few more themselves to know what to state here so hard? I am totally convinced of the crosses and variations i have gathered in my collecting years and that's quite a few...
In my humble opinion the fact that (many) medal makers continued making certain awards after the war is as Josef Fueß says sadly true. But...if we keep in mind a few other facts like the productionmethods of these crosses, their very high availability (over 5 million made during the war!) and the NEED for these medals which must have been low in the post war period, then i find it very hard to believe that they were en mass produced by the tens of thousands (or millions?) in the 50's, 60's, etc. Why would one make them in such quantities as the originals could at that time also easily be bought for that amount and were easily available?
A few more "facts" for those who don't know how the crosses were made: 160 by one person in one day was possible. Do you know how they were made? Pressing out the shape, enameling, heating in oven, finishing... i do think on a 8 hour workday a craftsman could make 200 or so if he wanted.
Another "fact" i very much disagree with is the "fact" that is being told here to explain the number of variations that could be found in many crosses. A true FACT is that we know of a very large number of makers during the war that produced them, we know of the time period they made crosses (about 6,5 years) and we know the total number of crosses that were made (i also have them divided over each year and most of the official awarding moments, also besides this there were also during the war a few unofficial awarding moments, which would elevate the number of over 5 million a bit more by some tens of thousands at least!). It is only a fact that most makers had many productions over a years long timeperiod and small differences did occur in the productionmethods.
Speaking of differences, im NOT comfortable with the different enamel patterns attributed to certain makers in the picture that is shown in this thread as there are by those same makers also different patterns known...
Speakign of more differences: the way the disc was attached to the cross is known to exist in many more forms. I know of at least ten different ones, varying of rectangular cut outs, triangular, round, startype, very little cut outs, stripes, etc etc All served the same purpose: to keep the disc at the right angle.
In conclusion: yes crosses were produced after the war, no doubt about that but MUCH more were officially produced and awarded than some people think!!! This was and is originally not such a scarce award as some people want others to think. Also i would estimate the number of post war crosses MUCH lower as can be read here.
Im not at a computer for the next few hours, but definately look forward to more factual information!
best regards,
Gaston
ps: since im giving away a few things in this reply, here's a few more interesting things to think about: Just like many other awards i can easily imagine big overstocks of perhaps hundreds or even thousands that were found after the war and ended up in dealer hands. We know of the wartime produced crosses in cheap warmetal in 1945, but...we also know of POST WAR AWARDED crosses in 1945!!!Yes that is right! We also know that many crosses were planned to be awarded in May 1945 but never were awarded due to the wars end. A very confusing time and no doubt that in the many roaring months (year?) before 1945 some makers made a very large stock for future awardings that did now not occur in 1945! What happened to these crosses? Wouldn't this influence the number of needed post war produced crosses as well? How about the Deschler hoard that was found a few years ago? I know and have handled quite a few other "hoard" found awards over the years, Ek's, kvk's, etc... Besides that we know that as Josef Fueß states some makers cheerfully kept on producing post war, definately not everything is as bad as some people want others for whatever reason to believe... Keeping the ORIGINAL KNOWN number of awared crosses in mind im 100% positively sure that it easily exceeds the number of post war produced ones!
pps: What some people think or state is their opinion and good right to type down here, but... facts never lie! Before shouting please keep it to things that can be proven!
If you have some period Facts to bring to this thread, then please do.... of course, when time allows, we will wait, or better said, i will.
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