Mothers cross - ever seen this before?

[bnz41]

Hi guys.

I've purchased this denazified MC the other day as a research object.

When I removed the disc today I discovered a kind of join that I've never seen anywhere before. The disc has been soldered on to the cross, but in order to insure that it's placed the right way it has like an eight tagged figure underneath - like two squares on top of each other.....if you know what I mean?

However, this means that the disc can actually be fitted wrong at least three ways!

This also explains why there are some crosses with the disc upside down.

Does anyone have any information regarding this?

Are there any other known variations in the way they are connected, except this one?

[bnz41]

....and this one.

[Wim Vangossum]

First time I see this. Can't help much I'm afraid but I find it very interesting pictures about manufacturing techniques. And it makes me wonder what's behind the HJ shooting badges to name something else...

Regards, Wim

[Jo Rivett]

First time I see this. Can't help much I'm afraid but I find it very interesting pictures about manufacturing techniques. And it makes me wonder what's behind the HJ shooting badges to name something else...

Regards, Wim

Hi Wim
(hope you enjoyed the Postcard )
Behind the HJ shooting is Zero.
Here is a picture for you allthough it is a M1/63...also mass produced post war.. but you can be sure pre war was produced the same.

As to the question of the Mothers Cross, well the truth is also the same as with the Iron Cross, Souval (alone) produced Tens of thousands each year for the US market from the Late 1950`s through the sixties...so you can be sure most Mothers cross`on the market and in collections today are post war.
How many families in Germany had all these children that every day on every place the best condition mothers cross can be found? same answer as the Iron Cross.... most of what you ppl are looking at is post war. But who cares right? this post war stuff is already documented as Original, and it`s like a COA, that's all most collectors want to have, a reference book, or paper that gives them assurance !

[bnz41]

Well, that's a lot of hard words, Josef Fueß.....

Hopefully you can tell me how the original, wartime mothers cross connection looks like?

Maybe like this?

[Jo Rivett]

Well, that's a lot of hard words, Josef Fueß.....

Hopefully you can tell me how the original, wartime mothers cross connection looks like?

God kveld bnz41.
Well, yes it is. But only the truth. What a genuine mothers cross looks like taken apart? i have no idea. I have never ever either possessed one, or sold on one my life. (i will stand accountable for that) for the pure fact that it was a well know fact when i was a little snapper (a long time ago) that they were readily available.
They are, without doubt, the most fakes enameled item there ever was.
See period 1950`s Abels (usa) catalog advert for purchases of 1000 pieces and more. and they must have sold 1 million if not many, many, MANY more.

I would never touch a Mother cross, EVER, and my neighbour, who is a german, offered me his mothers... (he is a 56 year old german) for Sfr 20.- / about 17 USD... and i still said no... i will not toutch this multi faked stuff

[bnz41]

Then there must have been a lot of fakers out there during the 50, 60 and 70's, cause there sure is a big difference in the enamel from assumed maker to maker....

Just a few examples.

[Jo Rivett]

Then there must have been a lot of fakers out there during the 50, 60 and 70's, cause there sure is a big difference in the enamel from assumed maker to maker....

Just a few examples.

Of course, everyone thinks Suddenly of Post-wear relations with Rudolf Souval, because he is one of the few makers who has been open and told he did this, BUT.... at the same time, many, but MANY other makers had contracts with the UK, and the USA for amounts of certain medals each year. and what about the rest of the world, and the smaller makers??' , i say this many times, 90-99% of every small, normal offering today is post war- (i mean normal awards/medals)

It is called chasing the dream, and of course not all want to hear this because that will get them thinking... and after all, it is about money... but pls, do not react Mad to my post, i am only the bringer of old, already known Information...... that this stuff you is not just faked, but produced én mass after 1945.. that is proven, that is a fact, and we know this from Makers by their own mouths up until the late 1990`s !!!! so do the math ! Why do you think i am dealing internationally with small enamel since 35 years and i never touch a mothers cross? There is a Reason !!!!

Kind regards from Suisse. !

[eraser]

God kveld bnz41.

They are, without doubt, the most fakes enameled item there ever was.
See period 1950`s Abels (usa) catalog advert for purchases of 1000 pieces and more. and they must have sold 1 million if not many, many, MANY more.

Well the picture in the link you can easy see the mc is a fake.Why the nailcross isnt straight it's a little slanting if you look closer.That is also a sign of a fake cross.

Maybe member jabnus can clear this out he knows a lot of mc

[Jo Rivett]

Well the picture in the link you can easy see the mc is a fake.Why the nailcross isnt straight it's a little slanting if you look closer.That is also a sign of a fake cross.

Maybe member jabnus can clear this out he knows a lot of mc

PLS dont take this as a personal insult, but you need to WAKE UP, we are talking about one picture that was used, representing a maker who made mothers cross`for decades..... DECADES..

[eraser]

well it takes more to insult me.Just trying to learn from this and maybe with more ideas we can clear things out.
Another question if this maker that makes these crosses for decades even long after the war used the same dies and material as in the war years how will we ever be able to sepperate the (fake) ones form the good one's?

It will be very hard then if they came out the same dies.This is not to proof anybody wrong im just hungry to learn

[bnz41]

Josef Fueß; please stop quoting in every single reply! It's totally unnecessary since it's a direct reply to the previous post!

The one maker you are reffering to, I guess it's Souval? Are you trying to tell us that Souval made all these millions of copies, and even managed to make a lot of variations in the enamel?

I'm sorry, but I dont follow you? Maybe it's just me, but please, enlighten me....

[Jo Rivett]

but please, enlighten me....

Sorry, i quote so that you know whitch post i am replying to, nothing more, nothing less.

OK, i will enlighten you, if you don't have a calculator..here it is...
They say they made at least 30-50,000 Irons cross`and at least the same amount of Mothers cross per year during the late 50`,s and well into the Golden Sixties.. so we take per year 365 days, divided by 50,000.- we are left with over 160 cross per day, (of each kind) which is impossible to make by one person in one day...so there you have your explanation for the varieties of cross`... multiply that amount by the years, and then you will soon see why you will have many, MANY different variations of post war cross`... (Times this amount by the years, 15-20 !! then the figure becomes HUGE)

Now to end off, i see a few ppl getting their goats tickled here... i replied with facts, i am giving you nothing but facts with proof, i would advise, if you want me to continue on this thread in the manner i started, which is normal and courteous, you shall stop trying to point a finger at me, otherwise i am gone, and you can carry on believing that all mothers cross` were made before 1945.
which i am sure you would like top believe anyway, but is not the Reality.

[bnz41]

They say they made at least 30-50,000 Irons cross`and at least the same amount of Mothers cross per year during the late 50

Says who?

if you want me to continue on this thread in the manner i started, which is normal and courteous, you shall stop trying to point a finger at me, otherwise i am gone

That's all up to you, my friend.

You claim you're referring to facts, facts that I am totally unaware of, so what do you expect, that I just accept everything you claim and that's it?

By all means, not trying to disrespect you in any way, but I dont see you getting a lot of "I agree" here......

BTW god kveld til deg og.

[Jo Rivett]

Says who?




That's all up to you, my friend.

You claim you're referring to facts, facts that I am totally unaware of, so what do you expect, that I just accept everything you claim and that's it?

By all means, not trying to disrespect you in any way, but I dont see you getting a lot of "I agree" here......

BTW god kveld til deg og.

Hi, i have a soft spot for Norwegians, i visit there often enough in Jelloya !!
You need to read books on fakes, one called "Fake or Real" by Ray Cowdery, then after you read it, you need to mail him, since he wrote it back in 93 he has lots more info and pictures of the production of post war badges.
The book i am working on now he is helping me with so i cant say more, or giver you pictures, but i am sure if you contact him he maybe will oblige.

It is facts, not hocus pocus, or figures just made up by me. I don't need to get a lot of "I agree" here. Did you not see, that i did not say that your Badges shown here were Fakes? i did not say that, all i said is that MOST of them are fakers, which, granted, of course incorporates yours as well but it is the truth... and nothing more.

Now, maybe you don't know, but i collect small badges, my main focus for a longtime is the party badge, and i have become somewhat "known" for this, because, i can always provide History and facts and period evidence for most questions asked. (i like to believe this anyway ) so please before you start to shoot my Facts down in flames, provide me with some period facts and figures about the area you collect, before you even try and talk about something else, because that is what i what expect, and expect from another as well, that you first know ALL that is possibly to be known about the area you collect, before you even dare to challenge a person that confronts you with the facts..... and that is what i did, and it makes me 100% certain, that you do not even know about the Souval Mother Cross post war reproductions, which total over 1 million !!!!!!!!!!

Please, if you want to get really serious, i will join you, and willingly share all my knowledge, but only after you have done your BASIC homework and explored all period and post war information... otherwise i am left thinking-that you collected like crazy without knowing anything and are looking for facts after the collection is complete!