SA Brown shirt & HJ tunic for discussion

[Rylan]

Hello,

I'm posting a couple of uniform pieces for discussion on behalf of Stuart Russell, he has recently joined this forum but his membership is awaiting activation. These are out of my area, but the SS armband obviously does not go with this piece.

[Rylan]

2

[Rylan]

3

[Rylan]

4

[Rylan]

5

[Darin S.]

HJ shirt appears to be a decent one. Insignia has been added for sure, and it does not match the wear of the shirt. Strap is one of the most common Bann numbers encountered and is not correct for that area triangle. The area triangle is not so common. The entire set up is worth nothing more than the sum of it's parts.

[Darin S.]

Just reread my post and it sounds a little harsh. The HJ stuff is period but put together IMO. The strap is from Bann Litzmannstadt which was located in the Ost Wartheland Gebiet, not Sud Wurtennberg. This number is often found on put together HJ shirts as they were a hoard find and are easy to obtain. The Sud Wurttenberg triangle is not a commonly found one so it sells for a little more than some HJ triangles. It's not the most expensive but not the cheapest either, somewhere mid range. If desired the uniform could be restored with the correct straps for the triangle. I hope this was not sold as "original" or "untouched" because someone has attempted to restore it but used mismatched insignia. It would be worth what the shirt, triangle and strap would sell for seperately.

[klr]

This could also be a DJ tunic. Does it look like it has ever had a second shoulder strap?

[luftwaffe blue]

The Brown shirt does not have SA buttons attached, these should be silver or gilt. The SS armband well enough said on that. The collar is 59, i can find only Gruppe Weichsel and Tannenburg for this gruppe number, neither would suit the piping as that is pre 1938,

[wewelsburg]

The ARmband is supposed to go with this piece!ts supposed to be an SS brownshirt,black leather buttons twist black/white piping,59 numbered SS tabs although yes sa tabs do come in single unit standart numbers also they are SS style tabs that we are looking at. they look ok from here need closeups,SS cotton armband,why is your friend thinking its supposed to be SA its made up for SS,and may have some sort of chance,parts of it maybe,is there a shadow of a cufftitle under armband?any markings on teh belt hooks ?closeup of tabs needed,any RZM tags inside?the reason buttons arent gold or silver is that SS wore black leather buttons as such.This has a good chance of being a mockup BUT some of it I think may be ok.Also that is not an SA old fighters chevron! its ALSO supposed to be SS ,the SA type had red stripes inside not black.This is or is supposed to be SS.Put it up on the SS forum with better shots for an assessment has a chance.
Something u can do is look for markings on teh belt hooks,is SS they will say SS and a number,look for RZM tag it will say SS or SA.Look for shadow of cufftitle.
The whole thing looks VERY new,you cant jusdge originality on that though,have your buddy do a black light test on all that is white,shoulderstrap,tabs,roundel on armband..see if they glow!Are tabs sewn on by hand?check teh type of thread does it look like a small rope?thats how original period German thread looks.The whole set is most likely put together BUT again some of it MAY be ok.Need more details.

[wewelsburg]

Im in no way underminding anyone here I just want the original owner to know he is not dealing with SA here,Luft Blue knows far more about SA than I do and his assessment on the numbers not corresponding with Sa is a good valid point in also pointing out why the shirt is not SA,Im just stating this is made up to be SS and he {owner}should know that.

[wewelsburg]

The more I look the more the shoulderboard looks bad.but teh tabs??OF chevron?

[sgstandard]

Shirt

Closeups are needed, of course. SS brownshirts are so rare..........(How rare ARE they?) They're so rare that one automatically assumes they are put together, until proven differently. The collar piping appears to be OK, and I see nothing wrong with the shoulderboard, though I'd like to see closeups of both. The SS wore the identical black/white collar piping and shoulderboard as the Berlin and Niederrhein SA in the early days. Not sure about THIS rank, but during this era, enlisted SS men also wore white piping around the collar tabs. Most SS brownshirts, but not all also have a cufftitle. The tabs (assuming they're authentic), are certainly not SA. CLOSEUPS, CLOSEUPS, CLOSEUPS!!

[wewelsburg]

Actually no piping is ok,up until 34 lower ranks had no piping,so could be circa 34 or before,very very rare tabs if that is the case.Later on teh twist piped were worn on teh lower ranks,and then ofcourse later on white piped lower ranks also existed .
The problem I had with the board is teh sloppy made underlay look toward teh button front,its sloppy,also the underlay protrudes alot on the sides meaning ALOT of black showing around teh board piping,its just not a crisp board albeit it is early and if it were age ok,but it looks minty.It also seems of a short length to me,.But without better pics?
Again dont bade condition on authenticity but all of teh insignia looks VERY new,look at teh roundel on teh brassard,its VERY white,id like to throw a blacklight on it.I think this shirt has a chance but needs further inspection both photographically or better yet hands on!!Id love more photos of thread under tabs etc etc.

[sgstandard]

Piping

I don't believe the last statement is true. I'm pretty sure that in 1933 and 1934, all enlisted SS wore black/white collar piping up until the piping was switched to silver/black. Even SS candidates with NO collar tabs had bi-color collar piping. During this era, the enlisted wore white tab piping also, I believe.