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**Vid** · 03-13-2012, 12:00 AM

Originally posted by Steve T View Post

Maestro, is it yours? If so please tell us how its made.

It looks like the SS circle and runes are made up of 5 pieces of metal , the circle and then two pieces of flat bar with one end of each cut on a 45 degree angle and welded together to form each sigrune, am I correct?

Also, is it all wrought iron or is the circle runic emblem in steel? From the pictures it looks like two types of metal.

Steve,

I purchased this piece from auction after having the opportunity to examine it on a preview at the MAX about 4 years ago. The photos are mine and it resides in a private collection. I cannot say I have ever seen construction like that before and it was impressive to say the least.

Best,

Kris

**maestro** · 03-13-2012, 12:33 AM

Originally posted by Steve T View Post

Maestro, is it yours?

i wish

http://www.thirdreicharts.com/engine...Filter=Gallery

**maestro** · 03-13-2012, 12:34 AM

Originally posted by Capt. R View Post

I wish this thread would get closed down since it is no longer used for scholarship - only a staging area for a load of rubbish to be sold as authentic ss items.

or if moderator can remove some of the rubbish

**Steve T** · 03-13-2012, 05:17 AM

Originally posted by Vid View Post

Steve,

I purchased this piece from auction after having the opportunity to examine it on a preview at the MAX about 4 years ago. The photos are mine and it resides in a private collection. I cannot say I have ever seen construction like that before and it was impressive to say the least.

Best,

Kris

Ok, thanks Kris, Darius. I like wrought iron and I'm always interested in the construction techniques.

**Thorsten B.** · 03-13-2012, 05:23 AM

By reading some recent comments here one has to wonder if people are really ready to discuss the ITEM and to develope any kind of feeling and knowledge to find out which pieces are indeed from the period.

Some think that my shown birthday candleholder is not SS?

Fine, let´s discuss that with reasonable arguments and the conclusions we can draw from the historical sources and docs we already have discovered.

Definitely the piece is from 1942 and original.

Just by looking at the pics of the "SS candleholder" posted by maestro I come to the conclusion that that piece is indeed rubbish.

They took a period normal wrought iron candleholder, cut off whatever was in the middle of it and replaced it with the SS-symbol made by modern methods and from a totally different material to let it appear as "SS".

That´s all that it is for me and nothing else.

And all of you think different?

Well, no need for development then.

**Michael Fay** · 03-13-2012, 05:46 AM

Originally posted by Thorsten B. View Post

By reading some recent comments here one has to wonder if people are really ready to discuss the ITEM and to develope any kind of feeling and knowledge to find out which pieces are indeed from the period.

Some think that my shown birthday candleholder is not SS?

Fine, let´s discuss that with reasonable arguments and the conclusions we can draw from the historical sources and docs we already have discovered.

Definitely the piece is from 1942 and original.

.

I already discussed the reasonable arguements and proven your candle is not SS from your own offered evidence .
Let me be of service to you by reposting my comments from post #2053

"You can never prove this is an SS item from all your evidence (so reluctantly) given on page 45-46.
FOR THOSE WITHOUT THIS ORIGINAL BOOK: it is page 55 in Ulrics translation of the "SS Family."

the only thing similar is that there is a birthday celebration that calls for 14 candles and or a wooden ring(geburstag) that all 14 candles could be set in.

So...the candle holder you show is NOT described in the SS=Familie book.
So...The SS=Familie book states the 14 candleholders/candleabra set is for celebrating the childs birthdays in which gifts are given to the child at the candle lit celebration.
A big problem for you is that the book states this candle set up is for the children to attend and get gifts...ALL the the while, the candles are to sit on the sacred Family chest. How many family chests for Germans were in Norway?
I would think: none.
Another problem as I see it with this information is : the SS Man's extended family was not in Norway as a general rule, was it?
The children were in Germany proper.
And as for those who married Norwegian woman...the children sure would have been few...and tiny infants and it is not understood that the new SS religion was popular with non -Germans, especially Scandinavians,etc.
in fact quite the opposite in Norway from what evidence there is..
So, from the information you have provided (with such reluctance), you can not prove any definite SS tie in.

Why do you persist in calling every Germanic item of furniture and hardware you find at the local flea market and estate sale as being SS without enough evidence?

ALmost no one else on WAF in any forum declares anything is SS without having some actual evidence to back them up.
Do you feel special?
it is destroying the hobby.

**Thorsten B.** · 03-13-2012, 06:34 AM

Michael,

My good old sparring partner, it´s nice to hear from you again.

How are things going?

Now let´s get to the known and visable facts:

My 1942 candleholder is definitely a ceremonial birthday candleholder.

It bears on one side at the bottom (see pic I posted with my friend Piglet) the initials of the child to which the piece is dedicated:

"B. F." in a runic style just like it is also shown on the first early emblem of the Ahnenerbe combined with a Lebensrune - runic symbol of life.

The other side bears a heart - as it was in use on the Julleuchter.

The foot is decorated with numerous symbols: animals, a tree of life, a half-timbered farmhouse, the northern star, and other symbols in a northern style.

The dedication around the foot is: "Weihnachten 1942 in Norwegen".

Another dedication near the mentioned animals and symbols is:

"Sei getreu" - an old-fashioned term of: Be true.

The only historical source that mentions a ceremonial candleholder with 14 candles is indeed the SS Family book.

On page 45 and 46 it is clearly stated that numerous possibilities are possible to celebrate the child´s birthday - and then the pictured wooden birthday candleholder is mentioned and the possibility to obtain that piece for using it as ONE possibility of an SS Family´s birthday candleholder - clearly NOT the only one possibility.

The pictured wooden birthday candleholder could be obtained - but that was not an inner law and order, it was up to each SS Family to get this one or to get a privately made one.

It was an official offer and possibility, nothing more and nothing less.

In fact Himmler and the other SS officials were always open for other regional traditional creations and variations, no doubt about that.

Another factor: who told you that the piece was made IN Norway?

Maybe, maybe not - who knows?

So in the end:

If you believe it was NOT SS - what else does the piece represent then in your opinion?

SA? Wehrmacht? NSKK?

Please share your point of view.

**Michael Fay** · 03-13-2012, 06:56 AM

Originally posted by Thorsten B. View Post

Michael,

My good old sparring partner, it´s nice to hear from you again.

How are things going?

Now let´s get to the known and visable facts:

My 1942 candleholder is definitely a ceremonial birthday candleholder.

It bears on one side at the bottom (see pic I posted with my friend Piglet) the initials of the child to which the piece is dedicated:

"B. F." in a runic style just like it is also shown on the first early emblem of the Ahnenerbe combined with a Lebensrune - runic symbol of life.

The other side bears a heart - as it was in use on the Julleuchter.

The foot is decorated with numerous symbols: animals, a tree of life, a half-timbered farmhouse, the northern star, and other symbols in a northern style.

The dedication around the foot is: "Weihnachten 1942 in Norwegen".

Another dedication near the mentioned animals and symbols is:

"Sei getreu" - an old-fashioned term of: Be true.

The only historical source that mentions a ceremonial candleholder with 14 candles is indeed the SS Family book.

On page 45 and 46 it is clearly stated that numerous possibilities are possible to celebrate the child´s birthday - and then the pictured wooden birthday candleholder is mentioned and the possibility to obtain that piece for using it as ONE possibility of an SS Family´s birthday candleholder - clearly NOT the only one possibility.

The pictured wooden birthday candleholder could be obtained - but that was not an inner law and order, it was up to each SS Family to get this one or to get a privately made one.

It was an official offer and possibility, nothing more and nothing less.

In fact Himmler and the other SS officials were always open for other regional traditional creations and variations, no doubt about that.

Another factor: who told you that the piece was made IN Norway?

Maybe, maybe not - who knows?

So in the end:

If you believe it was NOT SS - what else does the piece represent then in your opinion?

SA? Wehrmacht? NSKK?

Please share your point of view.

I am doing quite well demolishing your pathetic lies about your candle holder.

"Runic style" : is a dime a dozen in pre Nazi Germany AS YOU KNOW.
There is NO lebensbaum on that holder of yours--as far as i can see-even so, the lebensbaum is a universal symbol-everyone used it, not just SS
Heart shape: Really? You think SS had a copy right on the heart shape?

"The foot is decorated with numerous symbols: animals, a tree of life, a half-timbered farmhouse, the northern star, and other symbols in a northern style"

--Oh yes, the SS had copyrights on this Northern style, too?

"Sei getreu" - an old-fashioned term of: Be true."
---being old fashioned term means everyone used it, who felt like it. Being true is not a philosophical idea created by the SS

Even if i did not have any idea who or what made that unwieldy candle holder, I can still see as plain as day that it can not be proven to be SS from everything you have reluctantly put forth as evidence.

BUT, as a matter of fact, I do know who the thing was for.And have better evidence than you seem able to make up as you go.

**Thorsten B.** · 03-13-2012, 08:06 AM

"I am doing quite well demolishing your pathetic lies about your candle holder."

Really?

""Runic style" : is a dime a dozen in pre Nazi Germany AS YOU KNOW."

The piece is dated 1942.

"...unwieldy..."

It is a masterpiece.

"BUT, as a matter of fact, I do know who the thing was for.And have better evidence than you seem able to make up as you go."

Do tell.

**jabnus** · 03-13-2012, 09:36 AM

hi,

I've been following this topic for quit a time now and till now decided not to participate just because of the way it develops.

Without wanting to get caught in the middle of something, (that is going on for many pages now and is destroying the fun of this topic for the interested readers), i do want to tell something for everyone who reads this and wonders more about these items.

I collect early dutch fascist and collaboration period items, some of my favorites are female brooches modelled after ancient (germanic) designs. In an attempt to understand more about them and their background i started to collect the "Hamer" magazine that was published during the war. This magazine dealt with all sort of old items and (made up propaganda) stories related to old history and also mainly about the items. Reading up in this topic im sure many of the posters here must be familiar with the magazine.

The reason for replying here and mentioning the above Hamer magazines is the following: if you browse through the 4 years of those magazines you can see numerous, hundreds and hundreds of examples of wrought iron candleholders, wooden furniture...etetcetc. The thing is:

NONE OF THEM ARE SPOKEN OF TO BE FROM THE WWII PERIOD!!!!!!

All are mentioned to be just old by craftsmanship made typical Dutch and German cultural items. Nothing more, nothing less.

More and more this topic here is becoming a sort of generalized marketplace in which every "cultural" item is spoken of like it is a real WWII item. Some of them might be, and yes those are very collectible, but we have to be realistic and understand that in that small period of WWII only a very small percentage of items is indeed related to the third reich. Most cultural items are just that: CULTURAL ITEMS! nothing more, nothing less. They are nice, yes, but not at all related to the WWII related german period. On a side note; we can even conclude that during the third reich, just like in the centuries before, and the years after, some cultural items were made, but are they then national socialistic items or "just" cultural pieces? There is really no need to call every cultural item a german WWII item.

In my very humble opinion: we should all use our brains and not be blinded by"what could be" ...

best regards,
Gaston

**Thorsten B.** · 03-13-2012, 10:00 AM

Interesting point and has always to be taken into account as well because:

Fact is: within the NS period they used and needed these old traditional objects of german craftsmenship and examples of creative arts to develope their prefered style - whether it was called germanic, neo-pagan, völkisch, national socialistic or also officially SS.

Yes, there was SS art defined, elaborated and developed in the NS period - and that surely started earlier than 1933, just because Karl Diebitsch as one example of a typical (and official) SS artist developed his style of prefered sketches and drawings already in the 20ties.

Fact also is: these kind of conservative, rural, neo-pagan, völkisch elements of creative arts were held in highest and only regards during the NS period - and therefore received special attention and support in opposite to the Weimar system.

That´s exactly one of the cultural reasons why the NSDAP and their prefered cultural agenda developed so quickly and gained success among the common people as well as the old-school traditionalists and Nationalkonservative as well.

**Vid** · 03-13-2012, 10:57 AM

Originally posted by Steve T View Post

Ok, thanks Kris, Darius. I like wrought iron and I'm always interested in the construction techniques.

Steve,

You are welcome to contact me and will explain the construction, certainly not modern by any means and old school.

Best,

Kris

**Steve T** · 03-13-2012, 11:05 AM

It's good to have people like Gaston comment, I think he is spot on, you have to see the period material to have any chance of understanding what's NS and what is not. Sometimes its relatively simple, as with DHW material, you just buy the catalogue and and its full of product sold by DHW, most of the time its not so easy and you have to study a lot more, if you can find something to study.

This thread just illustrates what I allude to above, so its quite expected that a lot of the things shown here are not SS/NS or maybe even nothing to do with the TR period, they are often posted just to discuss, gather opinion and these posts are welcomed by me. Opinions will be disputed and many things will not find answers. There isn't a great deal of collective expertise in this area but WAF is one of very few platforms where we can talk about this type of material, and this thread, whether we like it or not, is popular and has surely contributed to our learning.

If a collector should want an easier hobby its probably wise to not collect cultural items and choose an area like medals where one can fill a bookshelf with books of answers already written down. On the other hand, going back to Gaston's comments, some people have more of an interest in less documented areas and learn, as an example, from buying years worth of Hammer magazines to study the subject, the study is surely part of the enjoyment.

**Steve T** · 03-13-2012, 04:33 PM

Wrought Iron Decoratives 1937

Photo's, 1937, Wrought Iron.

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Iron-swastika.jpg (31.5 KB, 244 views)

**Steve T** · 03-13-2012, 04:41 PM

Few more..

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A couple of Cultural items

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