A couple of Cultural items

[Steve T]

Thank you.

I count 40. However I think my warp is a bit different. It's not as exact and "tight" as yours, however it might be due to wear or photo?

Thanks

Very close to what I've posted so far. I'm not as yet drawing any conclusions, just collecting some data. One would expect a little variation even if made on the same type of machine, set for the same product width, by the same man/woman even, gauge of thread, how tight the person stretched the warp, possibly even small changes due to any cleaning over time, a number of factors could possibly modulate the number.

Just out of interest here's a picture from one of my old books, Meyer-Heisig - 'Weberei, Nadelnwerk, Zeugdruck' 1956, and shows the double image weave in the style of the region we discuss here, interestingly well before Mr. Jacquard invented his effectively digital patterning method we are more familair with in tapestry we discuss here.

At tapestry from the 1700's.

[Minnesinger]

That looks awesome. Nice to see that same style of "bottom" in the animals. I'm sure they all have it but I haven't seen such detailed photos of the other pieces front.

What's the fringe like on your pieces? Mine is a simple overhand knotted fringe. It seems that most other has a added fringe.

[Steve T]

That looks awesome. Nice to see that same style of "bottom" in the animals. I'm sure they all have it but I haven't seen such detailed photos of the other pieces front.

What's the fringe like on your pieces? Mine is a simple overhand knotted fringe. It seems that most other has a added fringe.

Just talking personal taste here but I don't like added fringes at all. My two landscape format pieces don't have fringes. My known post war piece from the Kunstweberei I just bought to inspect has an added fringe.

In the case of your piece for me the fringe is an execption, I do like the simple design of it, nothing added, just the warp threads used to finish the weave.

[Etienne B.]

Hi Steve,

Here is my contribution:

On the ''white/natural'' side I count 40 white threads per 10 cm.As on the other brown side there are 160,divided in strings of 4.You can see it in my post nr. 1220.

Etienne

[Steve T]

Thanks Etienne

OK I have three more pieces to inspect now. Two just arrived in the post and one which I have some good pictures of.

A European collector very kindly sent me some pictures of a tapestry after reading this thread and this is pictured here, lower of the two images.

I don't know whether the thread density will lead me or you to any telling conclusions but it is a way that makes me look closely at the weaving, in similar positions on the tapestry as well.

Here's a shot where I've counted the thread. The top image is my brown landscape format tree of life which I believe is from the 1930's and the lower is the tapestry from the collector mentioned above. From looking at these pictures the construction and materials look exactly similar.

More to follow...

[Minnesinger]

Thanks Etienne

OK I have three more pieces to inspect now. Two just arrived in the post and one which I have some good pictures of.

A European collector very kindly send me some pictures of tapestry after reading this thread and this is pictured here, lower of the two images.

I don't know whether the thread density will lead me or you to any telling conclusions but it is a way that makes me look closely at the weaving, in similar positions on the tapestry as well.

Here's a shot where I've counted the thread. The top image is my brown landscape format tree of life which I believe is from the 1930's and the lower is the tapestry from the collector mentioned above. From looking at these pictures the construction and materials look exactly similar.

More to follow...

Is there a difference in the yarn? The top one seems to be stitched horizontal (--) but the one on bottom looks like its tilting (/).

Sorry. Thought you had both in hand. Perhaps its the angle of the photo.

[Steve T]

Well sure, but I am not argueing it is authentic TR era or not... I just dont have any dog in that fight anymore as this thread has taught us that they are all under suspicion!

As I seem to remember I got shots for you before over and over on the candle holder and as far as I am concerned you kept changing the goals on me: moving the perameters of what were your specifications for deciding what was a fake or not. Each time i supplied new photos addressing the latest critique then you just created a new critique .
I dont feel like playing that game, if you dont mind.

So now it wont be that way:
You specify up front and ahead of time exactly what you think you are looking for in photos of the back of my rug.
And what those things will supposedly enlighten us with.

Is that not fair?

So why dont you state your specifications up front? and I will go charge up my rechargable batteries for the digital camera, and then go and take the old rug out of storage , and drag a bunch of lighting equipment around all just for you.

--so why dont you enlighten me as to what you are looking for that will lean us one way or the other? Or is that not your point and you just want to see if you can tell which textile company made it?

And like i said, I just dont care anymore about teppiches...they are poisoned in my estimation.
But I wont play any games simply on principal.

I have no specification, I have no dog, I'm not in a fightt, I'm not playing any games, I'm not asking for fancy lighting on pictures, and if its a big effort then please don't bother on my account. Forget it.

[Steve T]

Is there a difference in the yarn? The top one seems to be stitched horizontal (--) but the one on bottom looks like its tilting (/).

Sorry. Thought you had both in hand. Perhaps its the angle of the photo.

Could be, or just the twist in the yarn.

Here's a shot from the front for you.

[Michael Fay]

Yes - thanks for sharing, Michael.

I assume that catalog consists of more than just this one page - if so: can you share the complete catalog with us?

Maybe...
after you admit you were 100% wrong in attacking my old rug as being a "Bernward Christian rug".
Now that I have shared with the WAF community (or the "us" you speak of )as to how completely wrong you were (and are )via the very rug company catalog you ask to see more of , it is the least you can do before you ask favors of me.

[Thorsten B.]

I am not in for playing games either - if you want to share feel free to do so.

If not just go ahead.

By the way: your piece is still a curtain - not a rug.

[Minnesinger]

Could be, or just the twist in the yarn.

Here's a shot from the front for you.

Thanks. Looks like there is a thinner yarn to make the finer details.

The warp looks just likes yours. Very tight and with a braided look. Is there different types of warps? I'll take a photo with a ruler tomorrow at the same approximate distance of mine. The longer loose warp just makes it look like its twisted threads.

[Steve T]

Here's a full view of the tapestry the collector kindly sent me pictures of.

Now this piece, like my brown tree of life tapestry has very clearly been used. It's clear with my tapestry it was used as a wall hanging. With this piece it is potentially also telling us the story of how it was used.

The shape of it, the style of construction and the materials being the same as my piece suggests to me it could have been easily used as a wall hanging. On the other hand the deterioration of the piece due to the way it was used might lead one to think, it might actually have been used as a curtain.

The pictures are clear for you to be able to draw you own conclusions but I'll write a couple of points I've noted.

Notice the reverse is heavily faded, compared to the front side, as if it were facing light. Also see the top of the piece, the colour is clearly not as faded. Possibly this area was protected, like for example by the mantel area over a window opening and thus not exposed to so much light as the bulk of the piece. If the piece was used as a wall hanging the front of the piece would be faded more than the reverse, as is obviously clear on my tree of life example.

Notice also the reverse vertical banding, a pattern of fading, fading pattern due to curtain being in the closed position during daylight? Also see the front sides, one clearly faded more than centre. Often curtains naturally do not hang perfectly flat, an edge can turn into or away from light.

The top is also hemmed over leaving a gap which would allow the insertion of a hanging pole/curtain rod.

However these were generally used, it is made just like a wall hanging, but with this one I see signs of use as a curtain. Others could show a completely different wear/fade pattern and I don't know what it was originally designed to be used as.

We don't know for sure of the age of this piece but I would have little doubt this being a period piece, the wear, fading and commonality in the materials and construction between this and the brown tree of life I have which I'm sure is period.

[Steve T]

I received a couple of second hand modern MW pieces today. One unused with manufacturers label still attached and the other used.

Here's the used piece. A picture taken with only a UV light as the source for exposure in a dark room. Now the whole shot is lit with UV so you will see light areas exposed. The UV will help point out areas for concern and in this picture you can see the thread that makes the pattern is lit but not particularly sensitive to the UV whereas the warp threads are. Also there is a bright cotton seam thread running around the edge. All pictures that follow in UV will be under the same conditions, same source, same camera setting, same colour temperature settings so a relative comparison can be made.

This piece could be washed, but more probably not as I would think if it were the chemical whiteners in the washing powder would not be selective and sensitise the warp thread but not the pattern threads (?)

[Steve T]

Here's a Göteborg pattern, the second piece I received today. Second-hand but not used, paper label still attached and intact.

Same lighting so can be compared to the above picture. All pictured items in cotton and wool construction.

Article placed next to the 1930's tree of life pattern for comparison.

[Michael Fay]

I am not in for playing games either - if you want to share feel free to do so.

If not just go ahead.

By the way: your piece is still a curtain - not a rug.

I share rather enough all ready. And thank you so much for giving me permission to continue to share.

Like how I share that you have been proven fully dishonest.