A couple of Cultural items

[ETN]

That Farm house is a real jewel and all it needs is an ERBHOF sign!

Just what I was thinking!

I would love to see that house in person, simply amazing!

[hoacha]

Just what I was thinking!

I would love to see that house in person, simply amazing!

Well gentlemen, do I ever have the perfect Erbhof sign for that house/stable. !!!

Its been in my collection for years.. As soon as i am home, i will take a picture and post it!!

[hoacha]

i never knew the significance of this. The former owner had painted the sides to prevent rust.. too bad the color is off. Can someone translate the bottom sentence|? .I understand the top...i hope the link works..

[hoacha]

[hoacha]

I will be back after the weekend. Have a good weekend everybody.

[Michael Fay]

Rene,

Your conclusion is partially right and partially wrong.

Bread plates have been there before within and after NS period.

But only within NS period they really were religious/cultic pieces of highest importance and held in much higher regard than before and after NS period.

And only within NS period there were many different versions and most of them combined within their use in the circle of the year.

1933-1945 was a different time and these pieces have to be seen and recognized as part of the movement and new religion.

Wood, iron and clay were judged to be the most important germanic material and so they were most important for reorganising a germanic life-style, especially within the SS...."

.

Nothing is for sure.
First, the obvious: things are faked. Just ask the antique furniture collectors. I cant help thinking a wooden plate is not that complicated to make in the correct manner of a SS era wooden plate. It certainly has to be easier to fake convincingly than cloth SS tabs and metal SS rings or Allach porcelain.

Second: There could easily have been wood plates made after TR period for cultic religious practices of a non Christian kind. Such as Wilhelm Hauer's "God believers" who continued their practice in the 50s , 60's,70's if not still today.
If Hauer's group that had some influence on the Third Reich could continue to survive (even though well known "), then why not more hidden groups( of which some have become known) continue to create objects of ritual for themselves? These later items could naturally have an acceptable look of aging from 20-30 years of use.

Rune occultists never went extinct in Germany after the TR era, they just went a bit underground-I have a German occult book from the 60's with the runes in it . Maybe they carved a few plates too? --Kind of like the idea that a carved chest with the right images could be from the mid 1950's even though it looks TR era made. only a plate is easier to make.

Bottom line for me is : Nothing is for sure in this area of SS interest.
Nothing.

[der-hase-fee]

i never knew the significance of this. The former owner had painted the sides to prevent rust.. too bad the color is off. Can someone translate the bottom sentence|? .I understand the top...i hope the link works..

Hier sparst Du sicher (last two letters are missing) = Here you certainly save !

In the read band: Einer für Alle - Alle für Einen = One for all - all for one.

At the top: Genossenschaftskasse = Cooperative Fund

I am not getting too excited about the sign, think it's coming from a local farmer's cooperative.

[der-hase-fee]

Here is a very "special" building...somewhere in the Hannover area...notive the inscription....and date....about the door....and the Runen of course...

I love the picture. The one that remains in my family has been build in 1792.

Just wondering: To the right of the center, is there still a swastika to be found ? By decree these had to be taken out. I remember one place where they - intentionally ? - never replaced the bricks, so everyone seeing the hole was wondering why and eventually the story would be told.

[Kuifje69]

Dear Thorsten,

Just 1 last question:

A bread plate with the description:

Unser täglich Brot gib uns heute

You would not find in a Yule corner?

Thanks and best regards,

Rene

[Thorsten B.]

Hello Rene!

Such a bread plate would not be in a Yule corner at all.

Best,

Thorsten

[Thorsten B.]

Michael,

I put my eye onto these objects since many years - already at a time when most collectors just had no clue that wooden objects represent an important facet of NS and especially SS ideology, cult, tradition and religion.

I think on the one hand it was because of the lack of well-based documentation, knowledge and known objects - but on the other hand it was just because these pieces are made of wood which appears to be an uninteresting, cheap and finally uninteresting and not desirable part of militaria and especially SS collecting.

But there are books, articles and written and photographed documentation from the period around, it just needs some time and experience to find these jewels which lead the way to the look and appearance of these wooden objects.

[Thorsten B.]

Already Himmler asked his Ahnenerbe leaders if and how it would be possible to order and manufacture bigger numbers of wooden wedding plates - which needed to be cheap enough to really order huge numbers of these plates for using them as presents and cult object celebrating an SS wedding ceremony.

What does that mean reading between the lines?

Easy to detect: that manufacturing these wooden objects was quite expensive already within NS period and that not really many craftsmen had the skills so that it was an unsolved question if the SS would be really able to present a wooden wedding plate to each marrying couple.

As a side effect we can draw the conclusion that - if somebody wants to fake these pieces - it is even harder and more complicated to find a wood carver who is able to do the job.
Don´t think that such a specialist is easy to locate - and definitely he won´t be cheap either.

If one could be find I don´t think that he would carve any runic symbols in a wooden piece since these specialists are depending on restoring churches and official old buildings and such - do you think they want to get into trouble with such clients only for faking/manufacturing some wooden plates?

I don´t think so.

Apart from that they probably take about 100-200 Euros for each working hour - and a carved plate is not done in half an hour - apart from the fact that making such plates does not only need a skillful carver but he must be a good wood turner as well.

So where would be the mortgage?

[Michael Fay]

cheaper labor and personal inspiration are logical factors

Already Himmler asked his Ahnenerbe leaders if and how it would be possible to order and manufacture bigger numbers of wooden wedding plates - which needed to be cheap enough to really order huge numbers of these plates for using them as presents and cult object celebrating an SS wedding ceremony.

What does that mean reading between the lines?

Easy to detect: that manufacturing these wooden objects was quite expensive already within NS period and that not really many craftsmen had the skills so that it was an unsolved question if the SS would be really able to present a wooden wedding plate to each marrying couple.

As a side effect we can draw the conclusion that - if somebody wants to fake these pieces - it is even harder and more complicated to find a wood carver who is able to do the job.
Don´t think that such a specialist is easy to locate - and definitely he won´t be cheap either.

If one could be find I don´t think that he would carve any runic symbols in a wooden piece since these specialists are depending on restoring churches and official old buildings and such - do you think they want to get into trouble with such clients only for faking/manufacturing some wooden plates?

I don´t think so.

Apart from that they probably take about 100-200 Euros for each working hour - and a carved plate is not done in half an hour - apart from the fact that making such plates does not only need a skillful carver but he must be a good wood turner as well.

So where would be the mortgage?

Frankly, I dont think it is only as you state:
Let me apply the missing ingedients of wood carvers from lower paid economys and most important: personal inclination of carvers not inspired by profit, but by personal cultic or nostalgic beliefs.

As others on MANY other threads have mentioned, Eastern Europe springs to mind when thinking of items made to fool in the way of wood carving . And lets face it, the act of the initial creation of a wood bowl on a lathe, etc is not exactly that unknown by wood workers all over the world. Then another can finish the product with more skill

As for "specialists" in Germany, I always meant that such things would have been created as a labor of love by those who were in such groups, like Hauer's or Hielscher's or even by those who were as you say specialist carvers and still clung to the 30's-40's era of thought in Germany and were still produced some on the side for personal reasons.
For such a group, worry of offending church and authority would simply be
taken care of by keeping their personal works to themselves and their fellow believers.
As such groups did continue after 1945, it is logical to consider they would still create items for themselves and like-minded people secretly.

[Thorsten B.]

I never came across any cultic inspired wooden items which were made after the NS period.

And therefore these - if ever indeed made - would still be authentic pieces out of the time when they have been made and cannot be seen as the attempt of faking TR or SS cultic wooden items.

Any specialist/artist is inspired by the Zeitgeist - so according to that a wooden piece been made in 1965 speaks a different language than a piece made during TR period, no matter what the artist want to express with his work of art.

A Breker bronze from 1955 looks different than one from TR period and a Breker bronze from 1965 already looks different from the one he made in 1955.

Like it or not: artists and their work develope.

Apart from that: for producing a fake a faker is in need of an original.

Until now all plates I have seen are unique pieces.

I just see no real argument for your negative view on these items.

[Michael Fay]

I never came across any cultic inspired wooden items which were made after the NS period.

And therefore these - if ever indeed made - would still be authentic pieces out of the time when they have been made and cannot be seen as the attempt of faking TR or SS cultic wooden items.

Any specialist/artist is inspired by the Zeitgeist - so according to that a wooden piece been made in 1965 speaks a different language than a piece made during TR period, no matter what the artist want to express with his work of art.

A Breker bronze from 1955 looks different than one from TR period and a Breker bronze from 1965 already looks different from the one he made in 1955.

Like it or not: artists and their work develope.

Apart from that: for producing a fake a faker is in need of an original.

Until now all plates I have seen are unique pieces.

I just see no real argument for your negative view on these items.

What about the wood SS cultic items you claimed were fakes on "Germania international?" Remember when you told me some of those were fakes? Wasnt that both a "VolksKunst box" and maybe a teller or two?--At least.

Anyway, I am not "negative" on the subject of these items, as I collect them. -- I simply do not believe everything to be found for sale is always going to be authentic because you or anyone else simply says so.
This thread seems to be overly reassuring that wood carving is somehow impossible to recreate without extreme amounts of money and I just am not so sure of that belief. As there have always been those who fake SS items.