A couple of Cultural items

[JoeW]

Thorsten, perhaps people were expecting items of a more SS-Kultur motif, than your III Reich culturally significant DH furniture that is none-the-less of a non-SS-Kultur motif. I am sorry I mistook the items as Steve's. I didn't read closely his post and should have.

[Steve T]

Thorsten..and all..

I've enjoyed your threads and actively encouraged you to show a few pieces by helping to post some images for you.

Sometimes it there is disagreement between collectors, and perhaps some issues between personalities that really are just their own business but overall we collectors enjoy seeing each others collections and discussing the displayed pieces.

Many of our interests are quite diverse and only merge at some small crossover point and this is what sometimes makes for some interesting debate, we learn and share knowledge when we reach this point that allows our discussion.

Not everyone is going to agree with what we say, whether time proves what was said is correct or not,whatever the case maybe, I'm sure that there are many people like myself who appreciate the members that contribute and show their collections of these cultural items that perhaps are much less understood than the areas or orders and insignia for example.

Thorsten you have wealth of knowledge and some wonderful items in this area as do some of our other members and I certainly appreciate the in-depth and studious debate between yourself and members such as Michael F, Capt R, Erich, Etienne, Jim Toncar, Joe W, Kris L, Robin L and so on.. (apologies if I haven't mentioned you!)

Guys put your issues aside and enjoy this hobby we all appreciate..sometimes we agree and sometimes we agree to disagree... and yes, sometimes we need a thick skin but that's life, we all have the same hobby and lets try and get on with each other and enjoy this thread..It's one of the most interesting threads on WAF, well for me at least.

So Thorsten, and all others.. keep showing your stuff! I for one appreciate you guys doing so.

Regards,
Steve

[Thorsten B.]

OK - I start here with Joe´s last comment:

Well, I don´t know if some people sleep or dream about special pieces of what they think might be SS Kultur motifs on furniture, candleholders, interior etc. which seem to exist only in their pure phantasy.

Therefore, of course, there must be somewhere hiding interior stuff decorated with big runes and esoteric secret holy germanic symbols speaking volumes of messages to the SS -leadership while being in their household.

Much of these beliefs of collectors are what they are: not well-based infos but their own imagination of how the SS-Kultur just has to look like.

What the heck?

Three of the big closets do show these significant symbols but not in such an offensive way.

There is that closet made of local wood (pine in this case) bearing the production year "1940" on the doors and combined with four Mal-Runes.
There are the other two closets made of heavy german oak and bearing hinges and strike plates made of wrought iron in shape of trees of life which is clearly stated as well in the catalogue description.

This "Kassettenschrank" was the top of the line piece in the Heimatwerk production range, was exhibited in the Haus der Deutschen Kunst (House of German Art) in Munich and it´s price was almost 600 Reichsmark!

Do you guys have an idea what that amount of money meant that in the period?

And why do you stick on the non-based idea that the DH furniture was not SS-furniture?

In fact it was - Himmler´s house and Kommandostelle in Gmund/Tegernsee was filled up with DH furniture!

Himmler´s house - not Göring or Goebbels or Bormann.

Do you guys think that a man with manners and interest like Himmler would have ordered anything for his private and nonetheless representative rooms that was not matching to his own special taste?

[JoeW]

But you clearly stated above that household items destined for the SS were not available to the general public. Perhaps that is what motivated our forum members to expect examples such as yule-chests, rather than corner benches and armoires/closets that would be found in non-SS households.

[Thorsten B.]

Ahhh - you need - once again (roll eyes...) clear evidence of my statement, right?

So look into the book written by german folklore scientist Monika Ständecke "Das Deutsche Heimatwerk" and put an eye especially on the footers.

Apart from that the whole Reichsnährstand was in fact an organisation taking care of the core of Himmler´s heart and only run in leader´s positions by high SS-grades: protecting and organizing the power within post-industrial society and economy back to the preserver of aryan blood - the german farmer.

The head of the Reichsnährstand, SS-Obergruppenführer and Himmler-Intimus Richard Walther Darré is the key figure for developing the SS cultural ideas and founding the DH.

Do we need to discuss that he had a huge effect on nearly all the beginning and further development of cultural and religious ideas within the SS?

In the Weitzel book - one, if not THE most significant and most detailed prime document regarding celebrating a life-style and religion on their very own as a Sippengemeinschaft - it is clearly stated that SS-members are advised to buy the shown cult pieces from the DH.

And you want to tell me that the DH "is of a non-SS-Kultur motif"?

You gotta be kidding me.

[ErichS]

Thorsten..and all..

I've enjoyed your threads and actively encouraged you to show a few pieces by helping to post some images for you.

Sometimes it there is disagreement between collectors, and perhaps some issues between personalities that really are just their own business but overall we collectors enjoy seeing each others collections and discussing the displayed pieces.

Many of our interests are quite diverse and only merge at some small crossover point and this is what sometimes makes for some interesting debate, we learn and share knowledge when we reach this point that allows our discussion.

Not everyone is going to agree with what we say, whether time proves what was said is correct or not,whatever the case maybe, I'm sure that there are many people like myself who appreciate the members that contribute and show their collections of these cultural items that perhaps are much less understood than the areas or orders and insignia for example.

Thorsten you have wealth of knowledge and some wonderful items in this area as do some of our other members and I certainly appreciate the in-depth and studious debate between yourself and members such as Michael F, Capt R, Erich, Etienne, Jim Toncar, Joe W, Kris L, Robin L and so on.. (apologies if I haven't mentioned you!)

Guys put your issues aside and enjoy this hobby we all appreciate..sometimes we agree and sometimes we agree to disagree... and yes, sometimes we need a thick skin but that's life, we all have the same hobby and lets try and get on with each other and enjoy this thread..It's one of the most interesting threads on WAF, well for me at least.

So Thorsten, and all others.. keep showing your stuff! I for one appreciate you guys doing so.

Regards,
Steve

Well said Steve, knowledge and sharing is important in this hobby and in this forum. I tend to learn something new everyday and I have been collecting since 1968. Heck, it's fun when collections are shared and debated by learned collectors. Just my two cents.

[Thorsten B.]

Another example:

Just today I have spoken to the lady who is responsible for a new BIG object which has restored and examined over some years and which is a great add to their exhibition at former KL Ravensbrück.

Guess what it is?

They restored the first and most significant one of four "Führerhäuser" (SS leader´s houses) been built from 1939-1942.

Guess who lived in that house?

Camp commander of Ravensbrück Max Koegel with his family!
And even better: that house is the only one of which a black/white coloured pic from the period exists which shows the original interior in the bigger entrance hall (combined with an open fireplace and containing the wooden stairway to the sleeping- and children´s rooms as well.
The pic has been taken in about 1942 and shows - well..., furniture from DAF organisation "Amt Schönheit der Arbeit" (department goodliness of work).

Why that and not mystical SS-furniture filled up with runes and such?

Because the SS gave order to this DAF wing to develope useful SS-furniture for the use in SS-houses, there is in Ravensbrück still one original wooden bench in evidence in one of the other three leader-houses. And guess what?
It looks just like common practical TR furniture - but in fact was developed only for the use in these SS-Führerhäuser and made by an NS-organisation which seems to have nothing to do with any kind of SS-cult.

Well, the SS also had to live a daily life - couldn´t only sit on mystical chairs and eat from runic decorated Allach plates...

[JoeW]

You misunderstand my statement above in #188:"But you clearly stated above that household items destined for the SS were not available to the general public. Perhaps that is what motivated our forum members to expect examples such as yule-chests, rather than corner benches and armoires/closets that would be found in non-SS households."

I made this remark because you had written in #174 "By the way: the SS produced pieces of which you would never believe that they belonged to their production range but pictures for documentation made by the order of the SS show a lot of them." And in #179 you wrote "Nonetheless the Yule chest shown in the Weitzel book is not included - that means that it was not offered for the public." From these remarks I concluded that there was a special catalog or offering of special pieces to the SS-Family.So I ask you to clarify what was purchased by SS-Members from DH stock. Did they buy only standard DH pieces? This would be a no, as you indicated there were items offered only to SS families. So SS-Families bought both standard DH furniture and things, in addition to special pieces. Is there any documentation like a catalog from DH showing these pieces?

And going back to my earlier post #185 where I wrote "Thorsten, perhaps people were expecting items of a more SS-Kultur motif, than your III Reich culturally significant DH furniture that is none-the-less of a non-SS-Kultur motif." I was expecting to see the items offered only to SS-Families. But we now know that ALL the furnishings illustrated in DH catalogs are based on the DH development of their unique German cultural roots and are therefore of SS-Kultur origin.

[ErichS]

Taking everything into consideration, the most important SS Cultural item would have to be this......

[Thorsten B.]

And the Julleuchter.
And the Ehrendegen.

All three pieces were noted in their SS-Stammkarte (personal document file) in Berlin and had to be given back when the SS-member lost his honour/was thrown out of the Sippengemeinschaft.

All three pieces could not be bought, not officially and not in SS-circles.

All three pieces were directly conferred as symbols of cult, honour and loyalty.

Therefore all three pieces came along with an own personal citation and in the same style.

All three pieces were introduced within the Sippengemeinschaft in the early years of developments.

[Thorsten B.]

Of course there were wooden cult pieces made by Deutsches Heimatwerk only for SS-members:

The Jultruhe (Yule chest shown in the Weitzel), the Geburtstagsring (birthday ring shown in the Weitzel), the Radkreuz (a kind of undecorated wooden wheel for bearing the Julkranz shown and described in the Weitzel), the Julrad (Yule wheel, decorated with fine runic symbols and published in some Yule tide SS-organs), the wooden Yule plates (Julteller shown in the Weitzel) decorated with spikes and grapes, smaller Sippentruhen (clan chest) and sometimes wooden pieces ordered by very high SS-grades for dedicated personal use (a big SS-shrine for SS-Obergruppenführer Schmauser for example).

So there were a lot of different wooden cult pieces only for SS-use of which I am sure that they were in the first years only offered and ordered from DH and lateron from around 1940 on also manufactured by the SS-firm DAW in the different camps and perhaps partially delivered to the DH sales rooms since the DAW had not an own distribution system.

[Bob Hritz]

I, for one, thank all the participants for their contributions. I have learned a great deal and hope this thread continues with more of these fascinating folkish articles.

Bob Hritz

[Capt. R]

Debate is good!

This has been a fun thread to read. Lots of interesting material presented indeed.

I must say that debate only makes the forum more interesting and more informative. By hashing out our ideas and theories, we collectively will learn and grow and perhaps expand our conclusions and understanding. In short, debate is healthy and should not be seen as personal affronts to anyone. It is the spark of learning and understanding!

I have some pics of the heimatawerk catalog interior which I will post when I get more time.

Can someone please post the pics of the period photo in a catalog of the ss chest featured in the Celebrations book? Would like to see the other representation of it.

[JoeW]

And the Julleuchter.
And the Ehrendegen.

All three pieces were noted in their SS-Stammkarte (personal document file) in Berlin and had to be given back when the SS-member lost his honour/was thrown out of the Sippengemeinschaft.

All three pieces could not be bought, not officially and not in SS-circles.

All three pieces were directly conferred as symbols of cult, honour and loyalty.

Therefore all three pieces came along with an own personal citation and in the same style.

All three pieces were introduced within the Sippengemeinschaft in the early years of developments.

Uh, Thorsten, do you seriously consider the Julleuchter the equivalent of the ring and Ehrendegen? It was given out by 1000s to all SS members, and EMPLOYEES including women. They were not directly conferred but given out en masse to seemingly anyone in the room breathing. The candles were confered with a citation, they were symbolic and satisfied the parameters you established. So, we should add the candles to the list also? But surely you don't equate them to the TK ring or the Ehrendegen.

The Ehrendolch was also listed on both the SS Akte and the Stammkarte. Did it have a conferral letter?

CR, here is the pic of the nicely carved oak chest that was selected as the center-piece of the SS Corner in the family book. The overall design is identical, save for some difference in carving of the legs of the chest.

[Thorsten B.]

Joe,

Thank you for the picture of the Yule chest - yes, here it is shown without the Julleuchter on top so one could get the idea that it was indeed for sale to the coomon public, right?

But what was the common public?

We always need to refer to what was the attention of the SS by founding via the Reichsnährstand such a label like the Deutsches Heimatwerk?

How actually has it to be seen?

HIMMLER WAS THE SS and one of his best personal friends and ideological teachers, RICHARD WALTHER DARRÉ, WAS THE REICHSNÄHRSTAND.

Darré was so much like Himmler already because they both were studied farmers, both were strong idealists (yes, others who have no feeling for history will judge them as being idiots, dreamers and finally murderers but if we want to solve the question about any kind of SS culture, religion and creating a life-style on their own we need to take deeply care about what went on in their minds to find out their aims and goals) and both managed to let the SS and their cultural ideas growing to an enormous mass organisation within only a few years!

If we want to find out about their goals - why did they found Allach and the Deutsches Heimatwerk for example - we must read what they spoke about in their speeches (official and inofficial ones - all that is documented and available in the world of today) - nothing more and nothing less.

Problem here up to the present day: there are not really good translations on the market or in archives worldwide for the outspread of understanding, Zeitgeist and circumstances in society within the period in Germany.