A couple of Cultural items

[Capt. R]

this had been getting into some good discussion again on the so called ss cask...

so there are 2 in existence like yours Michael? Same names or different ones?

Thorsten, sometimes bad economic times bring the treasures out of the closets to be placed on the market and this could explain the surge of casks for sale in the last few months which has now died down. I will remind you that DHW tapestries also have come out of the woodwork lately but that alone doesn't mean that they are all fakes. I really believe that long held treasures were and are still coming out of collections due to the market and collectors are not as apt to buying something new until they can unload something "old" from their collections.

I think Michael's named cask is strong evidence as to the period usage of these casks and the further connection to a grave makes it more credible. Of course, it is possible that some disreputable seller could "reverse-engineer" one based on the same info but it was not marketed like that or hyped with that connection. This info was discovered AFTER the cask was already sold! Very intrigueing to me and good hope for the originality camp.

[Capt. R]

And often enough his tummy bothered him

Oh yeah, I replied above about ss casks but now it is my turn to try a joke for Robin - I must caption this as "Try as he might Herr Himmler never could shake his love and continual hankering for those equally addictive and spicy Yiddish matzah balls."

[Michael Fay]

Not about SS MK boxes, but larger Chests

this had been getting into some good discussion again on the so called ss cask...

so there are 2 in existence like yours Michael? Same names or different ones?

Thorsten, sometimes bad economic times bring the treasures out of the closets to be placed on the market and this could explain the surge of casks for sale in the last few months which has now died down. I will remind you that DHW tapestries also have come out of the woodwork lately but that alone doesn't mean that they are all fakes. I really believe that long held treasures were and are still coming out of collections due to the market and collectors are not as apt to buying something new until they can unload something "old" from their collections.

I think Michael's named cask is strong evidence as to the period usage of these casks and the further connection to a grave makes it more credible. Of course, it is possible that some disreputable seller could "reverse-engineer" one based on the same info but it was not marketed like that or hyped with that connection. This info was discovered AFTER the cask was already sold! Very intrigueing to me and good hope for the originality camp.

Hello Cap R,
this was not about the small SS MK boxes. It was about the larger Chests/Familie Chests /Ahnen Truhe --you know... large enough to usually have been made to store clothes and family related items.
Thorsten had claimed it was "nonsense" that I dared to point out that
the larger chests that are "Familie chests" or drawers are not always of an SS historic background as this had a larger tradition of many non SS people also having such chests.

I stated that such a chest cannot be understood as being owned and utilized ONLY by the SS.

For the next 2 days or so he refused to give any evidence to back up his claim that I was wrong.
Finally he claims to have not even have disagreed with me.

I knew I was correct all along as I have the evidence (including original Third Reich periodical with a write up on the family chests) to back up my arguement.
As it turns out, I never had to present my evidence as Thorsten was unable to present any evidence of his own...surprise, surprise.

[Capt. R]

cask

I would hope no one would believe that the ss had the market "cornered" so to speak on the ancestor chests. It is an old German tradition and not specific to any one time period or government. It is cultural and as such, seized upon by all arms of the TR to include the ss yes, but not just for them alone.

I wasn't confused, I was just more interested in the comments about the cask at this time and so I focused on that.

[Michael Fay]

I would hope no one would believe that the ss had the market "cornered" so to speak on the ancestor chests. It is an old German tradition and not specific to any one time period or government. It is cultural and as such, seized upon by all arms of the TR to include the ss yes, but not just for them alone.

I wasn't confused, I was just more interested in the comments about the cask at this time and so I focused on that.

Thank goodness,
someone else gets it.
Others have to speak up when somthing untrue is argued ...especially when
that person may influence new comers and may have an interest in seeing certain items go up in price.
If no one on WAF challenges such activities, then it looks like WAF condones it.

[maestro]

great thread Michael.. thanks.. here it is in case someone missed it:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=237387; interesting 3rd variant of mk box posted there as well as the treasure box by Simon King.. i wonder if there's more variant of MK box out there!

[Thorsten B.]

Sorting this out

Michael,

Once again you try to put things in my mouth that never have been spoken.

The only relevant things you and I stated regarding the use of the chests is starting you in comment 631:

"except that the "MK boxes" are absolutely SS related while a Jul and familie chest are not all absolutely SS (some are/most are not), nor even necessarily Third Reich inspired at all. Any one could have one if they could afford to have one carved (so middle class civilians could easily have had them),or ideally had one passed down through their family-as many did. This was, as you know, an old tradition .
Dont you agree?"


After that I said in comment 632:

"No."


Then more in my following comment 632:

"Michael,

Name the individual who told you such nonsens - is he a WAF member also?

Even a wolf in WAF clothing so to speak?"
-------------------------------------------------------------

That was and is relevant - and I strongly stay behind my "No" to your expressed opinion.

The followings attempts of yours trying to let me look like I was wrong in my comment 631 and 632 is based on - NOTHING!

And that speaks volumes about your personal hatred agenda against me in person and not against facts - instead of them you eagerly try to present facts that Never left my mouth.

[Thorsten B.]

Michael,

refering again back to you initial comment 631 please explain this to me:

"...while a Jul and familie chest are not all absolutely SS (some are/most are not), nor even necessarily Third Reich inspired at all."

Again: who told you such nonsense?

Of course there has always been the very, very old tradition of symbolizing a chest as a Family chest, right from the beginning of it´s existence as a practical piece of furniture troughout the centuries.

Who would doubt that?

But it´s use as a "Jul and familie chest" is DEFINITELY ONLY Third Reich inspired!

So your opinion is nonsense.

And who would doubt that?

[der-hase-fee]

So Michael is saying "Jul and familie chest are not all absolutely SS nor even necessarily Third Reich";

Thorsten is saying ""Jul and familie chest" is DEFINITELY ONLY Third Reich".

I doubt anyone in Germany during any times held a trademark on the use of "Jul" or "family chest".

[der-hase-fee]

SS Wedding plate

By the way, how would anyone distinguish a "plain" bread plate to be related to a SS wedding ? Pure imagination ! While it's a nice item by itself, I personally do not fancy this practice.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=491147

[Thorsten B.]

Fact is that ONLY within TR period the Julfest was held as an official festivity.

Fact is as well that the DHW was a firm founded and run by the SS.

And fact is that some of their cultural goodies were only made - and offered! - to SS-members.

So the depicted chest in the SS Family-book is a Jul chest.

Yes, it is true that this chest is also depicted lateron in one of their DHW booklets.

BUT: that does not give any evidence to assume that this chest was also available for everybody entering one of the DHW shops.

The Julleuchter on the Jul chest was also depicted in different literature of the period but also was only for SS-members.

The SS-Family book - as the title says - was only for SS-members - not for everybody.

And so were some cultural items just as shown in the book:

Julleuchter, SS-Sippenbuch, Jul chest, wedding plate, Radkreuz for the Julkranz and the Geburtstagsring (birthday ring).

[Thorsten B.]

der-hase-fee - Nice try!

Ah,

you really think you can question the authenticity of the items I offer here for sale and so my reputation??

Speaks volumes about your character rather than mine.

Buddy - You got to be careful with what you say if you cannot back it up!!


So here for everybody plain to see I give doubtless evidence that my offered plate is nothing but a fine original SS-wedding plate:

Just read what´s written at the bottom of this pic shown in the SS-family book.

[Thorsten B.]

There one can read:

(2 Julteller aus Zinn, 1 Hochzeitsteller aus Holz, der Julkranz im Radkreuz, die Familientruhe).

Translation:

2 Yule plates made of tin, 1 wedding plate made of wood, the Yule wreath in the wheel wrench, the Family chest).


Got it, der-hase-fee?

OK - now get your SS-Family book and take a magnifier and read the carved dedication on the depicted wedding plate made of wood (that´s the bigger one in the middle on the chest) and tell me what is carved into it.

Or don´t you have an SS Family-book?

[Naval Enigma]

What is the stave supporting the yule wreath?

Do you have any images of the spoked wheel supporing the stave?

And what would typical inscriptions be on the yule plates?

How does one distinguish a sippentruhe intended for an SS familie from a more traditional family chest?

I agree that these cultural items are under-appreciated and crucial to understanding the mindset of the SS leadership. I hope this thread can continue to educate and not descend into as hominem attacks.

There one can read:

(2 Julteller aus Zinn, 1 Hochzeitsteller aus Holz, der Julkranz im Radkreuz, die Familientruhe).

Translation:

2 Yule plates made of tin, 1 wedding plate made of wood, the Yule wreath in the wheel wrench, the Family chest).


Got it, der-hase-fee?

OK - now get your SS-Family book and take a magnifier and read the carved dedication on the depicted wedding plate made of wood (that´s the bigger one in the middle on the chest) and tell me what is carved into it.

Or don´t you have an SS Family-book?

[Thorsten B.]

Striking in so far as:

I think this is a (helpless) act of compensation relating to my assumption that quite some of the wooden SS MK boxes are modern fakes and the presented scientific and comparatively cheap possibility of detecting that.