3 Deutscher Orden in one lot!!!!! Rarest of The Rare

[NBolinger]

Obermayer

Obermayber lets talk about your friends story where he baught his Silver order from Lina Heydrich.Did he buy the rest of his medals or just the German Order? Lina died in 1985 the war ended in 1945, for 40 years after the war how many collectors do you think had he bright idea to contact her and see if she still had her husbands medals? Im sure after the war she was constantly getting letters from all over the world wanting to buy her husbands orders, i even bet she was offered big money for them. Im going to make the bold statement and say she sold him a fake suval 1st class and i bet she sold a few more of them over the years. Why would she split up Heydrichs medals. Obermayer you say he has a picture of her with the medal before she sold it to him, i would bet its just a normal silver suval fake, i bet they were all over germany in the 60s.
Collectors from all over the world would write these war heros and there wifes letters asking about there medals and makeing crazy offers for them, Do you know how many collectors were screwed by real german KC winners after the war,I would bet hundreds, they would sell them Suval Fake knights crosses almost every time. Old collectors who have been around a while can attest to this fact.

Another point i would like to bring to light are the silver partypins that were PROTOYPES never numbered, there is one pictured in a past thred and the red enamel looks totally different from the known suval fakes that you state are much nicer.The large silver party pin pictured is of the highest quality!This is because they were to be accepted prototypes and included in the boxed sets for after the war.
Obermayer Talk is really cheap please post some pics and prove us all wrong.

[NBolinger]

the chickens

the chickens
Look at the eagle heads on the suval fake they look like they have chicken beakes or there smoking cigarettes.The detail in these suval eagles is not that great look at the eagles eyes, there almost on the top of its head.They should call these Suval Fakes The German order of the Chicken or the German Order of the smoking eagle 1st class."De Deutsche Auftrug des Hahns"

Also have a look at how poor the quality of the suspension set up is where the two parts meet on the chicken award.Compair the oalkeaves and swords set up on the suval chicken award and the known accepted originals, the pics i have posted clearly show much better detail.

[NBolinger]

new pictures

Here are some pictures i found in the web, before i said that i didnt believe that silver crosses were made, but i now think i was wrong the top cross looks to be silver but it still has the typical small fuess party pin, A past member stated the the first ones were made in tomback and then in silver, i belive we have a nice example pictured.Notice the silver cross does not have the chicken heads its got the normall deumer eagle heads.

[NBolinger]

funeral pillow

this is heydrichs funeral pillow

[NBolinger]

todt

this is todts funeral pillow, notice the the floating swaz in the center of the German Order, the arms dont touch he edges of the partypin.

[NBolinger]

doc

here is a picture of todts document.

[Alex W.]

Even if it is true that Deumer was the only one to produce the German Order, isn’t it possible that the souval “fakes” were manufactured after a second version of dyes that Deumer sold to Souval post 1945 ?

As it was posted over the last 17 pages, the Souval version differs in a few areas. One example the signature plate on the reverse side of the 1st class Order, it’s a separate piece attached to the Cross.
Why would Souval come up with that more complex idea out of the nowhere, when even cheap $60 copies have this section made of one piece ?

I find it hard to believe that the Souval versions are pure fantasy copies. Being constructed of solid silver I’ve read they cost $2400 US back in the 1960’s. That was a huge amount of money back in the day for a fantasy piece. I think they are even quite expensive today.
I think it is possible that Souval had a die set from Deumer, even if it was not the one that matches to the known text book examples.

Also, how does the S&L ‘Deutscher Orden’ fit into this, if Deumer was the only one manufacturing this award ?


Cheers,
Alex

[NBolinger]

medal

Roc You may be right about the silver suvals being made from an original deumer die, but the quality still is not quite as good.

I believe that suval made their crosses out of silver, and had the separate back plate with the signature on it made up to compensate for the lack of quality in their crosses; especially the eagles and the details of the heads and beaks, and their chest detail is very poor. also the neck suspensions are not great. Even if they make the medal out of silver and put the nice enameled disk on the back it would still be cheaper to do it this way than have them Fire Gilt with mercury.

I have seen the suval crosses as high as 10,000! on epier a few weeks ago LOL but thats still does not mean they're good. Past Experts have stated that the suvals copies could be bought for 100.00 back in the 60s?

When i mentioned S&L, i was just reading in post #56 of this thread about a cross from Herman historica that was being offered as one possibly made by S&L but it is unclear if they ever made one.

One thing that i noticed from a real wartime picture of one on todts death pillow, the order shows what i believe to be the small fuess partypin in the center and also the neck suspension under the eagle is cutout. on the suval one, its not. Just an observation.

[Alex W.]

Roc You may be right about the silver suvals being made from an original deumer die, but the quality still is not quite as good.

I believe that suval made their crosses out of silver, and had the separate back plate with the signature on it made up to compensate for the lack of quality in their crosses; especially the eagles and the details of the heads and beaks, and their chest detail is very poor. also the neck suspensions are not great. Even if they make the medal out of silver and put the nice enameled disk on the back it would still be cheaper to do it this way than have them Fire Gilt with mercury.

I have seen the suval crosses as high as 10,000! on epier a few weeks ago LOL but thats still does not mean they're good. Past Experts have stated that the suvals copies could be bought for 100.00 back in the 60s?

When i mentioned S&L, i was just reading in post #56 of this thread about a cross from Herman historica that was being offered as one possibly made by S&L but it is unclear if they ever made one.

One thing that i noticed from a real wartime picture of one on todts death pillow, the order shows what i believe to be the small fuess partypin in the center and also the neck suspension under the eagle is cutout. on the suval one, its not. Just an observation.

I definitely agree with you on the fact you pointed out about the quality differences between the silver Souval copies and the fire gilt ones. There is no doubt to me, that the quality of the Souval pieces is not as high as the accepted originals. The eagles head has much more attention to detail. I’m still not convinced about why Souval chose to go with a separate back plate though.

I’m sure the Souval Crosses are a collectable of their own, but some of the prices they seem to realize are very steep for a post 1945 piece. 10,000 USD is totally unrealistic.
I hope the one on Epier didn’t sell for that amount ?
I was recently offered an uncased 1st class German Order (Souval) for $800 and thought it was steep. Maybe I should reconsider

As for the S&L piece. As far as I remember the text in the auction said that it was unclear on whether the piece was manufactured pre 1945 or past 1945. No way of telling. If indeed it was done past 1945, it would be interesting to know, were they did get the dye from.

[ErichS]

I don't know why anyone would spend good money on a post 45 copy?

[Thorsten B.]

I think it´s called replacement activity.

[Chris Obermeyer]

Hello Roc,

I feel that your comments need some observations.
You said: “... isn´t it possible that Souval “fakes” were manufactured after a second version of dyes that Deumer sold to Souval, post 1945?
- I say it´s quite possible. It´s a known fact that the First Class decoration received by Reichsminister Fritz Todt, first recipient, was different from the First Class received by the second recipient, SS-Obergruppenführer Reinhard Heydrich. The difference Bolinger was talking, about the cutout or hollow suspension is exactly the difference between Todt`s cross and Heydrich´s. The reason for the changing to the suspension device´s design was the same for the changing on 1937 1st type Eagle Orders. The early design can brake easely, that´s why the new design “fun” suspension was introduced, still in 1937. Remember that there are several pictures on this thread showing a broken suspension of a German Order, exactly where it should be. This FACT is the prove that these decorations were made one by one, and like I said before, little differences are expected. German Orders were not ordinary decorations. By the way, just as personal opinion, I don´t know why they call “fun” suspender to the Eagle Order, because it looks more like a sea shell to me... I wonder how the word “fun” started....doesn´t matter.

Souval´s version for the German Order are not fantasy pieces. All Souval German Orders were made in solid silver because that was the original specification from the German Government, and made by Deumer this way, as described in several reference books according to one of my previous post. However I did not say Souval had only one die from Deumer, as he had at least three, one for each class.

Now a few comments about quality. Deumer/Souval decorations were made in SOLID SILVER, how about that for quality concearns? The enamel work on Deumer/Souval crosses are amazing as it should be. Although it is in black color, it shines and reflects like a mirror. Pictures can deceive you, those crosses examined with hands on is another matter. I have handle several, I know what I am talking about. Deumer/Souval design for the eagles are DIFFERENT from the “accepted originals” by some “experts”. Not worse, not better but just different. The German Order by Souval is the closest you can get from an original, furthermore, ALL ribbons for the First an Second Classes, made in the 60s and early 70s are 100% wartime originals made by Karl Loy of München. How about that for quality as well?

With all due respect, don´t pay much attention to Bolinger, he has personal reasons for his mistaken opinions, but he has the right to say so. Notice how easy it is to get a picture of the accepted originals (all of them are exactly the same) and how hard it is to get a Souval version. I honestly belive that it is quite possible to someone having an original cross on his collection, thinking it is a Souval repro, when in fact is an original.
Finally for what price is concearn, what could be more unrealistic as for TR items?
Chris.

[Peter J.]

"I wonder how the word “fun” started....doesn´t matter."

Chris, it's actually supposed to be "fan" i.g. fan out= spread out.

cheers
Peter

[NBolinger]

medal

Chris nothing you have said proves anyting it sounds like your just guessing, lets SEE some some proof, talk is still chap. Sounds like your friend got burnt on some silver suval fakes, And is not man enough to admit it. The truth Hurts Chris sorry.

[NBolinger]

medal

Chris, it was stated by a real old timers that the first ones were made in tomback and then in silver ,I have accepted this fact, could this be because they needed to change the metal because of the breakages on the neck suspensions? I do believe some were made in silver but they look just like the tomback ones but color is a little different.They have the same fuess small partypin also.

The fact that the suval crosses are made in silver or 800 silver? Does not mean anyting to me, silver was cheap back in the 50s and 60s, just because there silver does not mean they have great quality, just look at any picture of a suval german order they look like fake JUNK! theres a fun Fact for you.Its a much more expensive process to have the medal fire gilt with mercury. Thats a fact also.

The eagles on on the suval look very bad, almost like seagull heads they look far worse then the accepted deumer originals. Why is the eagles eye ball on the top of the eagles head? They are different thats a fact!

The pics i posted of originals took days to find and gather and some are the same cross just different pictures, like the first class i pictured i believe is the same medal, if you look at the enamel center they have the same spots.

Deumer just went out of buesines not to long ago, why would they sell there dies after the war to suval.People from Deumer have stated that they never sold there dies?

Chris so are you saying that the medals with the broken suspensions are real? and this is proof that they needed to fix them with a new die, and this is why the silver suval made crosses are not just 60s fakes?

Chris all this talk means nothing, prove us all wrong with pictures , you are just guessing on all your points no facts have been stated except for the fact the the eagles are different. This info has already been talked about in past threds on this medal by real oldtimers not us.

Are the eagles on a suval cross separatly applyed or are they cast with the cross?

I cant find one german medal form pre 1945 that has seagull heads or chicken heads or eagle heads with the eyes on the top of the head. I dont think any maker during the war would let a bird like that get out of the factory.