The Coburg Badge

[Gary B]

I agree, Andreas -- I would be comfortable with this one, too! And I wonder what the significance of the number "1" on the reverse of this stickpin was...it couldn't be the one prepared for AH, could it...?!

Cheers, my friend, and a very Happy New Year!

Br. James

I assumed "1" on the reverse was for Deschler (LDO number), who has been attributed as the manufacturer of the Coburg badge.

Gary B

[Br. James]

Thanks, Gary; I guess that's possible, though LdO numbers usually were presented with an "L" preceding the number, while awards authorized through the Präsidialkanzlei were presented without prefix.

A very Happy New Year,

Br. James

[Gary B]

Thanks, Gary; I guess that's possible, though LdO numbers usually were presented with an "L" preceding the number, while awards authorized through the Präsidialkanzlei were presented without prefix.

A very Happy New Year,

Br. James

Hi Br. James,

Oops I meant PKZ number. 1 is the PKZ number for Deschler.

Happy New Year to you as well!

Gary B

[Br. James]

Thanks, Gary; not a problem! I just wanted to clarify my own understanding.

I'm afraid I don't really have a solid grasp on the focus of the PKZ -- the Präsidialkanzlei or the President's Office -- in terms of the kinds of orders/medals that office authorized. Was a political order such as the Coburg Badge the sort of badge the PKZ was authorized to approve? Please help me here!

Many thanks, my friend,

Br. James

[ErichS]

Thanks, Gary; not a problem! I just wanted to clarify my own understanding.

I'm afraid I don't really have a solid grasp on the focus of the PKZ -- the Präsidialkanzlei or the President's Office -- in terms of the kinds of orders/medals that office authorized. Was a political order such as the Coburg Badge the sort of badge the PKZ was authorized to approve? Please help me here!

Many thanks, my friend,

Br. James

The CB was under the RZM.

[Military]

I assumed "1" on the reverse was for Deschler (LDO number), who has been attributed as the manufacturer of the Coburg badge.

Gary B

There was a prototype offered by Weitze some years ago that was claimed to come from Deschler. I don't know how true it is (in terms of the legitimacy of the badge). I don't like the design of it. Photos were originally posted by ErichS in this thread.

Mil

[Military]

Note that the rear has a broken pin and not even the numeral 1 was stamped. Of course this was only meant to be a "prototype".

Mil

[Gary B]

Thanks, Gary; not a problem! I just wanted to clarify my own understanding.

I'm afraid I don't really have a solid grasp on the focus of the PKZ -- the Präsidialkanzlei or the President's Office -- in terms of the kinds of orders/medals that office authorized. Was a political order such as the Coburg Badge the sort of badge the PKZ was authorized to approve? Please help me here!

Many thanks, my friend,

Br. James

Hi Br. James,

You are correct to be confused. PKZ numbers were not for political awards. If anything there should be an RZM number on the stickpin like we see on the NSDAP LS award stickpins.

The "1" might have been included to "legitimize" a fake by tying it to Deschler (the supposed manufacturer) if it is a PKZ number. Of course it could be for something entirely different.

I believe the Ratisbon stickpin was discussed in a separate thread, or perhaps this thread, and no consensus was reached. The pin that I show, with the flaws on the lower swastika arm, is the one that I am comfortable with.

Gary B

[Br. James]

Thanks, Gary, for the further explanation of the background and the possibilities of this piece. And thanks, too, to Erich for adding: "The CB was under the RZM." I suppose it is possible that this CB stickpin was an early RZM piece and that the "1" represented either M1/1 for Meyer & Franke of Luckenwalde, or M9/1 for F.W. Assmann & Söhne of Lüdenscheid...though before the "M" classifications were solidified by 1934 or thereabouts, the RZM logo was already in effect and showed up on badges yet without their M-code...?

And I still wonder whether this particular "1" could have represented the NSDAP Membership Number of the intended recipient of this piece -- "1" being the number of AH himself? I realize that CBs were not marked with identifying numbers and that a certain number of CB recipients were not members of the NSDAP, at least at that time, akin to the Blood Order recipients, and this has always made positive identification of specific CBs very difficult...

Thanks again for the important input,

Br. James

[Gary B]

Thanks, Gary, for the further explanation of the background and the possibilities of this piece. And thanks, too, to Erich for adding: "The CB was under the RZM." I suppose it is possible that this CB stickpin was an early RZM piece and that the "1" represented either M1/1 for Meyer & Franke of Luckenwalde, or M9/1 for F.W. Assmann & Söhne of Lüdenscheid...though before the "M" classifications were solidified by 1934 or thereabouts, the RZM logo was already in effect and showed up on badges yet without their M-code...?

And I still wonder whether this particular "1" could have represented the NSDAP Membership Number of the intended recipient of this piece -- "1" being the number of AH himself? I realize that CBs were not marked with identifying numbers and that a certain number of CB recipients were not members of the NSDAP, at least at that time, akin to the Blood Order recipients, and this has always made positive identification of specific CBs very difficult...

Thanks again for the important input,

Br. James

Recall that some of the 2nd pattern pieces were marked with the RZM logo but no numbers associated with a manufacturing company. Opinions vary as to why there are no company numbers included with the RZM logo but some believe it was early on in the RZM system and no company numbers were included at that time. That, IMO would negate the possibility that this stickpin was RZM marked (it would be just the opposite of the RZM marked 2nd pattern badge then; company number but no RZM logo).

Also I do not believe Hitler ever wore the Coburg badge so the thought this could be his stickpin with an issue number on it is not possible (IMO).

Gary B

[Br. James]

Thanks, Gary. Didn't Hitler attend the gatherings of the CB over time, and if so, wouldn't he have worn his CB there, at least for the time of the meeting?

Br. James

[ErichS]

Thanks, Gary. Didn't Hitler attend the gatherings of the CB over time, and if so, wouldn't he have worn his CB there, at least for the time of the meeting?

Br. James

Why would he wear a badge that says “MIT Hitler in Coburg”?

[Br. James]

"Why would he wear a badge that says “MIT Hitler in Coburg”?"

Now that's a VERY good question, Erich! I vaguely recall a photo of Hitler wearing a CB and speaking at a CB gathering, but I could be mis-remembering that. It wasn't recent... So the question really is: Did Hitler ever receive a CB at all? I went back to the List of Conferred Honor Medals published by the Obersten SA-Führung, and Hitler's name does not appear there, at least in the "Coburg 1922-1932" version of that list. So perhaps that seemingly obvious question -- "Why would Hitler wear a badge that says “MIT Hitler in Coburg”?" -- is the actual answer to it's own question!

Thanks, my friend, and a blessed New Year to you and yours,

Br. James

[Br. James]

Hi Gary,

Thanks for providing the photo of the reverse of that CB. It appears that that badge was produced by "RZM 189." Since the M1 classification only extended up as far as #186, we look to the M9 classification, which indicates that #189 was held by the firm of Rudolf Stärz of Gablonz a.N. in the Sudetenland.

Also, as suggested by ErichS, I must agree with your thought that Hitler never wore the CB or the CB stickpin.

Many thanks,

Br. James

[Military]

I do agree that Hitler never wore the CB or the CB stickpin, unless period photos one day prove otherwise.
He is also not seen to have worn the 1937 15th anniversary tinnie.

Mil