The Coburg Badge

[Br. James]

It's the same with the GPB -- the numbered ones, at least -- for that is where the "history" and the "piece" coincide! How exciting!!

Br. James

[JoeW]

Hi Joe, my collecting is most definitely around the history not the ‘things’, that why I collect Blutorden do they are attributable to the winners and the time in history they represent.

Of course your passion is well known Jon, enhanced by your most excellent work detailing the histories of your Blutorden recipients.

[JoeW]

No I do not Herr Zimmer. Does it contain new information on the Nazi action in Coburg?

Moderator. May I suggest that you start a new thread on the silver Coburg Badge debate and move all relevant posts to that topic. It involved a lot of work, but the debate does not belong in this thread.

My out-of-print bookseller tells me that there is a copy available @ $26.51; the listing is:

via
booklooker
Germany ISBN 3980800636
Publisher: Initiative Stadtmuseum Coburg
Taschenbuch. Neuware.

I don't think I'll add this title to my library! Cheers,

Br. James

You know Br. James, I went ahead and purchased it after the discussion here and it has sat on the bookshelf. Took it down tonight and paged through it. I would like to have seen the Coburg exhibition in 2004. There were many interesting artifacts listed, including period photos and another one of the art-glass renditions of the Coburg crest. One interesting note I found was the catalog on page 31 stated that in 1932, 422 CBs were presented to those Old Fighters from the Coburg battle who were still living. The source for this number of presentations was listed as Nimmergut's "Deutschen Ordenn und Erhrenzeichen" (2001/Bd 4) page 2041. Does anyone have Nimmergut's book to determine his source for this new number?

[Stan]

Yes Joe, I do. He says that there were 422 awards including 6 to females and says that the source of the information is the Document Centre Berlin, Orden und Ehrenzeichen Abzeichen [256].

However, he also makes clear that the list of 422 people cannot possibly include all the recipients as Hermann Esser and Kurt Luedecke travelled together with with AH to Coburg and yet are not mentioned on the list whereas other travelling companions - Amann, Eckhart, Weber, Graf and Rosenburg - are mentioned.

Furthermore, 4 awards were made to widows and one to a son (and one to a daughter according to Klietmann).

Stan

[JoeW]

Yes Joe, I do. He says that there were 422 awards including 6 to females and says that the source of the information is the Document Centre Berlin, Orden und Ehrenzeichen Abzeichen [256].

However, he also makes clear that the list of 422 people cannot possibly include all the recipients as Hermann Esser and Kurt Luedecke travelled together with with AH to Coburg and yet are not mentioned on the list whereas other travelling companions - Amann, Eckhart, Weber, Graf and Rosenburg - are mentioned.

Furthermore, 4 awards were made to widows and one to a son (and one to a daughter according to Klietmann).

Stan

Stan, I can't believe he means the old Berlin Document Center maintained by the US in Berlin that was turned over to the West German government. The Bundesarchives moved a great deal of material to Berlin, so that is probably what he referenced. I am not aware of any CB list other than the OSAF list shown earlier on this thread. And I thought the number was greater than 422. Perhaps he miscounted. It happens often and there is no one proofing his text. I found his reference to Klietmann in the large Klietmann volume published in 1971 I believe. He also states it was the third highest NSDAP Ehrenzeichen, behind the BO and GPB.

[ErichS]

Yes Joe, I do. He says that there were 422 awards including 6 to females and says that the source of the information is the Document Centre Berlin, Orden und Ehrenzeichen Abzeichen [256].

However, he also makes clear that the list of 422 people cannot possibly include all the recipients as Hermann Esser and Kurt Luedecke travelled together with with AH to Coburg and yet are not mentioned on the list whereas other travelling companions - Amann, Eckhart, Weber, Graf and Rosenburg - are mentioned.

Furthermore, 4 awards were made to widows and one to a son (and one to a daughter according to Klietmann).

Stan

Luedecke for example never received his badge according to his autobiography due to him being in prison at the time and being on the outs with Hitler.

[Military]

Yes Joe, I do. He says that there were 422 awards including 6 to females and says that the source of the information is the Document Centre Berlin, Orden und Ehrenzeichen Abzeichen [256].

However, he also makes clear that the list of 422 people cannot possibly include all the recipients as Hermann Esser and Kurt Luedecke travelled together with with AH to Coburg and yet are not mentioned on the list whereas other travelling companions - Amann, Eckhart, Weber, Graf and Rosenburg - are mentioned.

Furthermore, 4 awards were made to widows and one to a son (and one to a daughter according to Klietmann).

Stan

Hi Stan,

So the 4 post-humous awards were part of the 422 awards or in addition (meaning 426)?

Mil

[Stevade]

Coburg

I once had a very nice SA Dagger with a Dedication on the Blade which read Deutscher Tag in Coburg, also the Coburg Badge. The dedication was to an individual who took part in the weekend rally on the 14 October 1922.

[Stan]

Hi Stan,

So the 4 post-humous awards were part of the 422 awards or in addition (meaning 426)?

Mil

Mil,

Nimmergut doesn't make that point clear but I presume he means that they are included in either the 422 (or 436 according to Klietmann).

Stan

[Br. James]

In February of 2009 Robin Lumsden posted a list of Coburg Badge recipients on the World War Militaria website which totaled 450 names, a few of which were gleaned from the DALs but were not included on other lists.

Br. James

[JoeW]

The problem with relying on the secondary sources such as Lumsden, Klietmann, Ailsby and Nimmergut, is that one trusts their interpretation of the source material in the OSAF list and DALs. This can be problematic. For example, Lumsden lists a Heinrich Bauschen of Duisburg as a recipient. Yet the OSAF lists carries the name Bauschen as "Bauschen, Hh. Duisburg, für den Mann". Obviously, this is the wife's name and Hh. is a shortened female name that Lumsden mis-interpreted as Heinrich.

[Br. James]

Thanks very much for your input, Joe! I see what you mean about comparing Lumsden's list with the OSAF list of 'conferred medals' published in 1935. Here my ignorance of German phraseology shows up: I was unaware that "für den Mann" was another way of saying "Frau." What name would "Hh" represent in this context?

Of course, in the end, this adjustment would not compromise the total number of awards listed by Lumsden as 450.

Many thanks Joe, as always,

Br. James

[JoeW]

Thanks very much for your input, Joe! I see what you mean about comparing Lumsden's list with the OSAF list of 'conferred medals' published in 1935. Here my ignorance of German phraseology shows up: I was unaware that "für den Mann" was another way of saying "Frau." What name would "Hh" represent in this context?

Of course, in the end, this adjustment would not compromise the total number of awards listed by Lumsden as 450.

Many thanks Joe, as always,

Br. James

The Hh. would represent the female name IMO in a shortened manner. There is a list of German female names in a period Ahnenbuch that I have. Don't have access to it right now. But this raises the question of who is the recipient? IMO, "für den Mann" indicates the widow or wife is receiving it for the husband. We don't know whether he is dead or alive, but to me, the woman is not the recipient. Lumsden makes this mistake also with Therese Esslinger who is listed with "für den Mann." And, in that posting you refer to and which I am viewing for this posting, it was suggested that she was also a recipient of one of a "silver" CB. What? If he is making these mistakes in his interpretation of the OSAF list, what other errors have been made? As an historian, it is up to one to verify these lists from original sources. Or put the adjective "unverified" before any reference. I certainly would not take his list number as fact.

[Br. James]

Thanks for your response, Joe. I see the entry on Lumsden's list:

Frau Therese Esslinger / Female Recipient

I wonder why he chose to change "für den Mann" to "Frau" in this case?

Does it state in the regs that the Coburg Badge would be conferred on the spouse of the intended recipient, should that recipient be deceased? That does seem a bit odd...??

Br. James

[der-hase-fee]

"für den Mann".

This means in lieu of the husband and definitely he, rather then she, was the awardee. I would speculate that the husband was deceased at the time, but it could be that he wassn't available for the ceremony and had his wife attend to receive the award.