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**JoeW** · 06-23-2012, 01:15 AM

Erich, I don't think they are the same locations. Searching for the Coburg Gesellschaftshause, I found this photo on the Coburg Magazin Forum of the Gesellschaftshause after it had been renamed to the Adolf-Hitler-Haus in 1938.

Schwede-Coburg related that the location was the site of a short decisive battle with Marxist forces during the Coburg battle. So I would not think it a HQ for Hitler during their "visit" to Coburg.

I also found Hitler's speech at the Coburg Sportsplatz recorded on a Hitler Time-Line site for Oct. 16, 1932. He must have immediately left, as he gave two other speeches that day. He was a busy man, campaigning of course, and must not have had time for fellowship with the men he fought with ten years earlier.

**ErichS** · 06-23-2012, 08:16 AM

Joe, you could be correct regarding the building because it was just a guess on my part.

It's interesting to note that Schwede Coburg was not on the original list of recipients and it seems that he was awarded his badge later. In photos of him wearing the badge it looks to be a 2nd type badge.

**Br. James** · 06-23-2012, 09:29 AM

Here's another interesting factoid, though perhaps it has been mentioned earlier: Adolf Hitler's name does not appear on either the "List of the Conferred Medals" Coburg 1922-1932 or on Robin Lumsden's list of the Coburg Badge recipients. Could this be the reason why AH was never seen wearing the Coburg Badge...because he didn't receive one?!?!

Br. James

**ErichS** · 06-23-2012, 09:36 AM

Originally posted by Br. James View Post

Here's another interesting factoid, though perhaps it has been mentioned earlier: Adolf Hitler's name does not appear on either the "List of the Conferred Medals" Coburg 1922-1932 or on Robin Lumsden's list of the Coburg Badge recipients. Could this be the reason why AH was never seen wearing the Coburg Badge...because he didn't receive one?!?!

Br. James

It could be because his name is on the badge?

**Jon Fish** · 06-23-2012, 09:37 AM

Erich, you know Hitler only wore the important ones- Blutorden and GPB

**ErichS** · 06-23-2012, 10:08 AM

Originally posted by Jon Fish View Post

Erich, you know Hitler only wore the important ones- Blutorden and GPB

You're right Jon, what was I thinking......

**JoeW** · 06-23-2012, 10:14 AM

Originally posted by Jon Fish View Post

Erich, you know Hitler only wore the important ones- Blutorden and GPB

A johnny-come-lately eh! Without personal knowledge of the events of the 1922 march one would question the historical accuracy of his book, but he must have assembled information from other participants who would have cooperated as this book was an "official" version as it was published by the Central Publishing House of the NSDAP in Munich.

As Buergermeister of Coburg, one can see why Schwede-Coburg was so interested in furthering this reunion. The national honor for his city plus the extra business for his merchants was on his mind I would wager. In his report of the event, he takes credit for furthering the planning in conjunction with AH. And he reports that in the weeks before the celebration, AH disapproved Schwede-Coburg's initial design of the Ehrenzeichen. S-C reported that Hitler took a piece of paper and pencil and laid out the design shown in the picture in the S-C book.

I would like others to read the chapter "Nach zehn Jahnren...". I am not trying to lessen the historical importance of the Coburg Badge, but I read into this report that the event was a commemoration and honoring of those men that accompanied Hitler on this water-shed event in NSDAP history. Hitler took the time from a cross-country flying electioneering tour to visit Coburg to honor those that marched with him. S-C wrote that "As a reminder of their memorable trip to Coburg a special Ehrenzeichen till be presented to them." (p.229-Zur Erinnerung an ihren denkwuerdigen Zug nach Coburg wird ihnen ein besonderes Ehrenzeichen ueberreicht werden). Perhaps this is why Hitler's name was not on the original list as Br. James reports?

**ErichS** · 06-23-2012, 10:41 AM

Interesting Joe,

Ludecke wrote:

"Hitler and the Nazis ranked the importance of the Coburg venture so highly that to have been there became a special honor. This was officially reconized in 1932, when at the great festival on the 10th anniversary of that first victory, special badges were handed by Hitler to the men who had taken part."

" It is typical of Hiler's career that the Coburg episode, which started largely as a prank, ended as one of the most important milestones in Nazi history."

Make what you will of the above quotes by Ludecke but he was there and there from the begining with Hitler.......

**JoeW** · 06-23-2012, 11:18 AM

Originally posted by ErichS View Post

Interesting Joe,

Ludecke wrote:

"Hitler and the Nazis ranked the importance of the Coburg venture so highly that to have been there became a special honor. This was officially reconized in 1932, when at the great festival on the 10th anniversary of that first victory, special badges were handed by Hitler to the men who had taken part."

" It is typical of Hiler's career that the Coburg episode, which started largely as a prank, ended as one of the most important milestones in Nazi history."

Make what you will of the above quotes by Ludecke but he was there and there from the begining with Hitler.......

And therein is the problem historians often face. Reconciling apparently conflicting reports of the same event.

**ErichS** · 06-23-2012, 11:28 AM

Very true Joe,

But one can agree that to those who fought during the Kampfzeit, the Battle of Coburg and the Putsch are two of most celebrated and important events in Nazi lore and hence the decorations awarded for both.

**JoeW** · 06-23-2012, 11:49 AM

Very true Erich. I believe Mickey said in his paperback on Hitler's favorite awards, if it weren't for Coburg, there would have been no NSDAP.

**JoeW** · 06-24-2012, 01:02 AM

Originally posted by ErichS View Post

Joe, Ludecke was general in his description but stated that the Ehrenzeichen was presented by the Fuhrer to the veterans of the battle, so there is a discrepancy between the two authors.

As far as the guest book, there were other pages that I didn't post that had the signatures of Rosenberg, Grimminger and Hitler to name a few. It didn't say where the book was housed but my guess is that it may have been at this location.

Erich, on the Coburg Wikipedia site that photo you provided in the above post was identified as the Altes Schützenhaus anlässlich 15-Jahr-Feier zum „Zug nach Koburg“ im Oktober 1937.

According to Mayor S-C, the first night celebration ended in the Saal of the Hofbraugaststatte. Looking for this location, I found these photos on Coburg sites. The first is the Hofbraugaststatte......

....and the second is the Saal or large room where the 250 participants of the march were treated to three speeches.

Erich, did Ludecke indicate any numbers of original participants who showed up for the 10th anniversary presentation? I was wondering if he agreed or disagreed with 250 number put forth by Schwede-Coburg.

From the Robin Lumsden list, I find three Hofmanns of whom one might be the Oberst and Gruppenfuhrer who according to Schwede-Coburg was delegated with the responsibility of presenting the 250 Coburg Badges the morning of 16.10.1932.

Arthur Hofmann
Klaus Hofmann
Paul Hofmann

Anyone know which one is which ?

**ErichS** · 06-24-2012, 08:12 AM

Joe,

Ludecke doesn't mention how many attended the celebration or how many were awarded the Coburger Ehrenzeichen at the event. With only about 436 awarded badges from the orginal list it makes sense to me that all 436 recipients received the award that day rather than the 250 mentioned by Schwede Coburg. After reading the Ludecke book in which he spends a lot time dealing with Coburg, I tend to agree more with his version although general, rather than the Schwede Coburg version on how and by whom the badge was awarded by.

**JoeW** · 06-24-2012, 11:53 AM

Erich, there certainly is a difference of opinion as to who and what happened. Look at the different versions of the numbers accompanying Hitler on his trip to Coburg: 600, 700 or 800.

Both Schwede-Coburg and Ludecke were first hand witnesses to the events of Coburg 1932. One would hope there a newspaper reports or another witnesses written report of the events of that day. But whether 250 or 436, one must wonder what happened to the rest of the veterans of Coburg 1922 who didn't show. Death or indifference?

Does anyone have an English version of "Mein Kampf" available to recite Hitler's version of the Coburg 1922 events? The events from the arrival at the train station to the departure would be interesting. From the Schwede-Coburg report, I have found that after arrival the Hitler contingent headed toward the Hofbraugaststatte (post #7320) at Mohrenstr. 19 where the "German Days" events were being held. Hitler's group then headed towards the Alte Schiesshaus (post #717) on Fahrstrasse were another confrontation occured.

**Br. James** · 06-24-2012, 04:01 PM

As requested, I checked the two English versions of "Mein Kampf" I have at hand -- Reynal & Hitchcock, New York, 1941, and Houghton Mifflin Co., Boston, 1943 -- and both compare fairly favorably as to the translated text, though the index in the Reynal & Hitchcock is far superior to that of the Houghton Mifflin. Hitler's description of the events in question is found in Chapter IX under the section, "The march to Coburg in October, 1922." In the very first paragraph there seems to be a basic difficulty in describing how many people took part in this event. Hitler records that he received an invitation to the German Day gathering at Coburg and that he was asked to bring an "escort" with him. He accepted the invitation immediately. "Not more than an hour later the arrangements for visiting this German Day had been made. As the 'escort' I ordered eight hundred men of the SA, who in about fourteen detachments/companies of one hundred were to be dispatched by special train from Munich to the little town that had become Bavarian. Similar orders were dispatched to the National Socialist SA groups which meanwhile had been formed in other places." So how many people were initially sent to Coburg -- 800 or 1,400? Further along in this five-page description of the Coburg event, Hitler speaks of the confrontation that took place the following day: "...firmly determined to make an end for good with the red terror, at noon I ordered the SA, which meanwhile had increased to almost one and a half thousand men, to line up, and I set out with them on a march to the fortress of Coburg, across the great square in which the red demonstration was to take place." So, according to Hitler's own record, there were between 1,400 and 1,500 SA men assembled for the Battle of Coburg, drawing from the Munich SA units and other units that could arrive in time. If these figures are at all accurate, it would seem that the number of Coburg Badges awarded at the 10th Anniversary event represented less than one-third of those who actually took part in the 'battle.'

While I don't have an electronic version of an English translation of "Mein Kampf" available to me, the progression of the two days involved began at the Coburg Train Station as the NSDAP contingent arrived, whereupon Hitler was greeted by a deputation from the organizers of the German Day event who presented him with an "agreement" from the local trade unions (the local communist faction) that forbid the Nazis from entering the town "with flags unfurled and not with music and not in closed columns." He refused to accept this agreement and immediately mustered the SA contingent into detachments of 100 each and would march into the town "with resounding music and with flags flying." This was accomplished on the square in front of the train station, where the SA were greeted by "a bawling and yowling multitude, counting many thousands," who were yelling and cursing the Nazis from all directions. The goal of this SA assembly was to march in strict order to their billets which were arranged for at "a shooting gallery situated at the periphery of Coburg" and they received an escort from the local police. The Nazis were unfamiliar with the streets of Coburg so they followed the police escort while the crowds continued their harassment all along the way. The contingent wound up in the courtyard of "the Hofbräuhauskeller near the center of the town" -- which was not the destination they wanted -- and the police closed the courtyard gates in order to keep the violent townspeople away from engaging the SA. Once Hitler realized that the Nazis were essentially trapped and confined in the Hofbräuhauskeller courtyard, he had the SA resume their marching ranks and demanded that the police open the gates and let them out. The police did not initially want to do this but eventually bowed to Hitler's demand and the SA contingent marched out of the courtyard and back toward the train station along the same route they had just traveled. The crowds began to pelt the Nazis with stones and this is when the first melee broke out. Hitler records the confrontation as follows: "With this our patience was at an end, and so for ten minutes blows hailed down destructively from the right and from the left, and after a quarter of an hour nothing red was seen any more in the streets." The Nazis apparently found their way to their billets for the evening at the "shooting gallery" in the outskirts of Coburg, though local skirmishes took place between SA patrols and the opposition throughout the night. This seems to have taken the wind out of the locals because Hitler records that: "...early on the following morning the red terror, under which
Coburg had languished for years, had broken down." At 1:30 the following afternoon there was scheduled to be a huge demonstration of the local communists consisting of "tens of thousands of workers from the entire surroundings." Hitler tells us: "For this reason, firmly determined to make an end for good with the red terror, at noon I ordered the SA, which meanwhile had increased to almost one and a half thousand men, to line up, and I set out with them on a march to the fortress of Coburg, across the great square in which the red demonstration was to take place. I wanted to see whether they would dare once more to molest us. Upon entering the square, there were, instead of the announced ten thousand, only a few hundred, who, when we approached, kept generally quiet, partly took to their heels. only in a few places red troops, which meanwhile had come in from the outside and who did not yet know us, tried to molest us again; but at the drop of a hat they lost all inclination of doing so. And now one could see how the hitherto anxiously intimidated population slowly woke up, how they summoned courage, how by calling and waving they dared to greet us, and in the evening, when we marched away, in many places broke out in spontaneous jubilation." Thus ended the Battle of Coburg. The Nazis marched back to the Coburg Railway Station and, after a squabble with the station management about train arrival times and whether or not the special train Hitler had arranged for transporting his original contingent back to Munich would arrive as scheduled, the SA left Coburg. In Hitler's words: "Thereupon the train started on time, and on the following morning we arrived in Munich."

I hope this is helpful to the discussion.

Br. James

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