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**Peppe864** · 05-27-2008, 11:09 AM

Hello!

Good that you posted it up for discussion, because someone told me these badges where fake i.e. post war ones.

I posted the one I had, and it got some positive remarks, but I am not 100 % satisfied, yet!!!!

The argument for them being post war was first and foremost that they where only marked Redo and Ges.Gesch, it is said that the correct wartime redo badges should be marked with Redo Saarlautern if I remember it correctly.

As I own one of these badges myself, I am curious to know more about this rumour................

So what about the metal, the pin setup looks correct, now I would like to hear from the experts.....

THIS ONE SHOULD BE POSTED IN TINNIES & POLITICAL BADGES FOR BEST RESPONSE, PLEASE CAN SOMEBODY MOVE IT???

**relics2007** · 05-27-2008, 12:42 PM

[QUOTE=Peppe864;2654134]
"The argument for them being post war was first and foremost that they where only marked Redo and Ges.Gesch, it is said that the correct wartime redo badges should be marked with Redo Saarlautern if I remember it correctly."[/QUOTE=Peppe864;2654134]

I would completely disagree on this. I've seen a few original items with only "Redo" marking. I don't know why but it could be the space issue so they had to shorten the name. I doubt it if this badge ever being produced with the full name. If any member has it, please post the picture. The problem is the nature of these badges is rare, not so many people own one. However, I've seen many repro; their quality and pin type are not even close to compare.

**Richard** · 05-27-2008, 10:10 PM

I can't say I would be comfortable with this badge for the following reasons:

1. The color. I can find no reason that this badge would be green enamel. All the others that have been accepted as original were red enamel.
2. The composition. Virtually all the badges of this type I have seen going back for over 20 years are of a brass type metal with the backs of the badges often representing a copper type color.
3. The maker. Up until a few years ago, the only accepted originals were with the maker's initials R. K. I cannot say with certainty that those produced with the Redo mark are not pre May '45 examples, but cannot remember those being prevalent 20 years ago.
Richard V

**Peppe864** · 05-28-2008, 04:26 AM

Thank you Richard for that info......very interesting.

**Weisthor** · 05-28-2008, 10:36 AM

The ones with the red enemal are the "first edition", they then changed it to the green enemal, as far as i know. In my opinion, the showen badge is ok.

**Wim Vangossum** · 05-28-2008, 12:36 PM

Enamel badges can sometimes drive you crazy! If they are rare it's usually even more difficult to proof a badge is good or bad. Even quality of enamel means sometimes nothing.
According to Cone's book Redo used many differents hallmarks during the war.
Both with and without the city location. Original marks have to be very crisp, high relief and letters that are slightly rounded on the top of each letter face.

Hope this could help a bit

Regards, Theo

**relics2007** · 05-28-2008, 08:41 PM

Thank you for the opinions and knowledge.
Although some of you have already clarified, but even if no one had enough knowledge to "accept" this badge because it's not green or red, full Redo or short Redo

, I'd still whole heartedly know it's a good one because I know where I've got it from. I pulled it off eStand, now I need to sale other stuff to fund for a Luger.

Last but not least, I hope these two are original

**M Wipf** · 05-28-2008, 10:24 PM

OK, here's my two bits ..

First, if someone had faked these there would be more around, and there simply isn't.
Second, these just aren't that desirable (sorry), so if a faker were going to take the time and expense to produce an obvious quality example like this, they would be making Blood Orders, Colburg badges, Eagle Orders ect.. Why counterfeit pennies when you have the technology to produce thousand dollar bills?

I think it is an authentic example..

Only my opinion ..

Best ..

Mike Wipf

**Don Scowen** · 05-29-2008, 01:23 AM

Originally posted by MRW View Post

OK, here's my two bits ..

First, if someone had faked these there would be more around, and there simply isn't.
Second, these just aren't that desirable (sorry), so if a faker were going to take the time and expense to produce an obvious quality example like this, they would be making Blood Orders, Colburg badges, Eagle Orders ect.. Why counterfeit pennies when you have the technology to produce thousand dollar bills?

I think it is an authentic example..

Only my opinion ..

Best ..

Mike Wipf

They are faking £5 tinnies so that just isn't a valid argument......... There are many high quality fake enamels around that are not high value items. Fakers want you to think that it's not worth doing so that you are off your guard.

Plus, there are more green around than red.

Cheers
Don

**Peppe864** · 05-29-2008, 04:22 AM

One this point about the faking I agree with Don to 100 %, and also there is more green badges around than the red ones..........In the last year I have seen about 10 green ones and 1 red one.......but that is just my personal observation.....

**relics2007** · 05-29-2008, 07:30 AM

Originally posted by Peppe864 View Post

One this point about the faking I agree with Don to 100 %, and also there is more green badges around than the red ones..........In the last year I have seen about 10 green ones and 1 red one.......but that is just my personal observation.....

You and Don missed the point. Yes, the fakers may focus on the cheaper and more common stuff so that collectors would not pay attention and he could sale them in volume. His intention is to produce hundred thousands to make up his investment, not to produce 10 or 50.
Keep in mind that nature of this badge is RARE. So if the above badge is a fake than it's got to be more than 10 badges that you've seen in the past year, how come I dont' see that many around???
Additionally, think... think... think about the demand of this item, NOT so many collectors are interested in it.... and how much it worth... think.... plus, if the RED badges are the only original as some of you may say, so why in the *&$# the fakers want to come up with GREEN badges to raise a red flag to get collector attention??? again think logically.... in the last year, you'd seen 10 green ones, and said you may have missed another 40 greens (I doubt it) so that make it 50. these badges worht around $100/piece so that make it $5000 per year. Yeah, the fakers can live on this much income after he spent that much money and sweat on faking these badges.

I guess another arguement you can make and I'm waiting for it coming..., is that some fakers out their spend hundreds thousands dollar machinary and hundred hours of work to produce these kind just to confuse the collectors for fun, and money is NOT his intention...

**M Wipf** · 05-29-2008, 07:45 AM

I think allot of authentic items get queered by (so called) experts. Nobody would bother faking this pin, especially in green. It defies logic ..

**Richard** · 05-29-2008, 07:54 AM

Interesting that there are more green than red. I had not seen the green badges until a few years ago but had seen the red for decades. While the color itself may not be an indicator of a reproduction, keep in mind fakers have created HJ member badges in blue and other colors as well. Stories are always created to justify these very obvious differences such as "marine HJ" or some other branch. So a reproduction in a different color is not in the realm of fantasy. There are many examples of badges being faked that have very obvious differences from the original. Think of the rounder KC as well.

There are also NSFK badges (the oval ones with Icarus and writing usually indicating some type of flying event) that were created and are superb in construction and would pass the quality test for German badges. Though there are originals, there are also many fakes of these "Flugwettbewerb" badges. The market was never flooded and the quality of the badges indicated lots of money, time and materials went into their production. So a lack of the market being flooded with the faker's craft is also no guarantee of authenticity.

As Don stated, $5 tinnies have been reproduced. The one that comes to mind immediately for me is the "Seefahrt ist Not" tinnie. If you look around, you can still find an original for what they are asking for the reproduction. Why spend the time, money and effort to fake something that is so commonly available?

None of the points made are valid for excluding something from the realm of a reproduction. The only way to insure something is period is for it to have rock solid provenance, or to be seen in period photos. I still have never liked the green badges and have always wondered why the manufacturers would suddenly deem it necessary to switch from red to green. What purpose would it serve and what might it symbolize?
Richard

**Richard** · 05-29-2008, 07:55 AM

Originally posted by MRW View Post

I think allot of authentic items get queered by (so called) experts. Nobody would bother faking this pin, especially in green. It defies logic ..

You'd also think nobody would bother faking the "Seefahrt ist Not" tinnie. I cannot prove this badge is not authentic, nor can it be proven it is genuine. For me, this badge would not be something I would want in my collection. For others, it is.
Richard V

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