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**Jimmy** · 12-08-2007, 12:56 PM

I have not enought experience with these plaques to know one way or the other, having only owned one iron one many years ago.
The way it was handled is what got me "upset". If you imformed the buyer by PM of your doubts your duty was done and you should have waited for him to make the next move. IMHO.
Sorry to become the bad guy here but that is the way I feel.
Jimmy

**Jimmy** · 12-08-2007, 01:02 PM

Bye guys I'm gone for the weekend.
Sorry to all that I have offended.
Merry Christmas to all.

Jimmy

**RaymondG** · 12-08-2007, 01:03 PM

Hi chaps

As Don has already pointed out, please keep it civil as insults and name calling will not be tolerated.

Everyone has the right to ask about an item and its authenticity whether the item is about to be sold, is being sold or has been sold. That is the way of things on here.

Martin, I must say that a COA from Detlev is not really rock solid provenance. Rock solid provenance is buying it from the person who originally had it during the period. Detlev is human and not a god and I have seen examples where he has simply got it wrong. I would ask that comments about authenticity are kept to the plaque rather than using the Detlev card.

I do not know if the item is real of fake, but I would ask that all discussions are kept civil and evidence is presented logically and without the added heat.

Some of it reads like a type of bullying and I know that none of the members involved are not like that and certainly would not want to be viewed in that light by other members.

So, keep it civil and keep the comments about the plaque (which is the most important thing here) and ignore all the other bits around the edge which are, in the main, irrelevant.

Raymond

**Martin Harding** · 12-08-2007, 01:13 PM

Hello Raymond, well said and focus purley on the fuhrer Plaque is the only relevant agenda.
Regards Martin

**Don D.** · 12-08-2007, 02:41 PM

I'm glad to see we can keep things civil.

Martin, I'm not questioning your integrity here. For some the use of Detlev's name means everything to the point they don't even look at the item. Detlev is good (one of the best for several reasons in my book) but he has made mistakes too. Couple that with people actually faking his COAs today and you have to conclude that it is the item that must stand scrutiny in the end. This forumis about collectors helping other collectors and that is what I want to encourage here.

The mods cannot vet every item even though we had a thread not too long ago where that was actually suggested. Thousands of eyes and the hundreds of thousands of collective years of expirience are what makes this place special. To all I would say let's encourage discussion even if it can be a pain in the @ss sometimes.

**Richard** · 12-08-2007, 02:48 PM

I have no dog in this hunt but want to provide some neutral and impartial comments. I have good feelings towards all the members posting as all seem to be serious collectors with their heart in the hobby.

Martin, in reading your first post, I too thought it came across somewhat aggressive and, from the past posts of yours I have read, seemed totally out of character. I can certainly imagine that emotion may have played a part in the way the reply was worded when you discovered this thread after the sale had taken place.

We are here to discuss anything and everything relating to our hobby. I think Jimmy is wrong in stating that it should have been discussed "behind the scenes". How is any of the collecting public going to learn if this is the way things are discussed? Who is to say that if the buyer is contacted he would not just have backed out and no further discussion to help others learn might ever have come of it? How are you going to PM the buyer if he is not identified?

I purchased a 1944 Gausieger badge about 4 years ago from a member here. All I recall is that he was in the US. The badge had been viewed hundreds of times, just like this plaque. No one questioned it. No discussion threads were opened.

I was happy with the badge, thought I had done my homework, but a year and a half later discovered that this was a questionable badge and considered to be a very high end fake. Sadly I could not recall the members name and, after a year and a half, the estand refund time had already expired, so the seller was under no obligation (except morally) to provide a refund had I been able to recall who he was in the first place.

I learned then and there that perhaps hundreds of viewings with no bites may speak just as loudly as someone questioning an item in a thread. This does not mean to say I think this plaque is fake. It does mean that an object isn't guaranteed to be geniune just because it has been viewed by many and not publically questioned.

This forum is supposed to be a collector community where discussion and thought can freely flow to allow all of us to learn more about the hobby we enjoy. It becomes less so when people that would like to start a discussion out of concern or just wanting to learn get told to bug off or are called hecklers.

Regarding the plaque. I can see where there might be some questions. In comparison with the known original, there is much less detail than one might expect even if an inferior zink material might have been used and corrosion is taken into effect. It also appears that, while close, some of the lettering does not seem to match up.

Even when looking at inferior late war materials used for badges or anything else, the quality of workmanship was still evident. There seems to be a great deterioration of quality in the comparison of these 2 plaques. This is something I would not expect in a piece destined for presentation. Do we have any non-portable award experts on the forum that might offer some of their expertise?

Unfortunately when trying to evaluate a piece as to originality, many times all we have to go by are comparisons.
Richard V

**Martin Harding** · 12-08-2007, 03:30 PM

Thank you

Hello Richard, yes I appreciate all you have said and have read your post carefully. If I came across to anyoneas too harsh you have my full appology and it was not intentional. As Dan & Raymond pointed out the debate should be kept purley to the Plaque now. I have just received a pm from a waf member, with remarkable insight and advice. sadly I will first have to send him a pm before I can quote what he actually said. As he did not post the comments here it would be wrong for me to quote him unless he first gives his consent.
Regards Martin

**PlaceOfBayonets** · 12-08-2007, 04:27 PM

I don't know about the plaque one way or the other but I know a little about casting.
This has only to do with Plastic or resin but the more casts you make from an original mold the more degraded the copies become. If Metal works the same way it would explain a thing or two.

That said "re casts" made of such items? I'd like to find a re cast of a Kiaser Wilhelm plaque if anyone knows where to get one.

Wilhelm

**emilitaria_usmc** · 12-08-2007, 06:09 PM

I have the Angolia book and took a close look at both plaques and the one pictured in the book. To me, one thing doesn't match - it looks like Martin"s plaque might have a gold finish applied post war after corrosion destroyed the thin bronze finish - then more corrosion ate away at the gold.

Corrosion also has a way of filling in low spots and making some spots look thicker resulting in a great loss of detail. So this plaque might be a refinished original or a gold finished cast of a cast. That's the problem we all have with items made of zinc.

Best solution is just withdraw the sale. Next time you put it up just disclose that corrosion makes it look like a recast. Let's stop the verbal battle - you both made some good points.

Conclusion: it might be a good one or it might not be. Leave it at that.

Dan

**ChrisJ** · 12-08-2007, 07:31 PM

Oh Dear

As the party who was buying the plaque, I think that its appropriate to step in here...I would have done earlier but differing time zones precluded this.

As I have explained to Martin, I know very little about these items, being essentially an RK (EK & KvK) collector. However, it appears from the postings and the several e-mails that I've received that there is a deal of opinion against this particular piece. Whilst I'm always ready to go my own way on items I am knowledgable and comfortable about, this is not such a case. There are clearly wider issues on such pieces that merit in depth debate.

There is enough uncertainty to make me uncomfortable, and therefore I have respectfully retracted from the deal with Martin.

I thank everyone for their mails, and to Frank for his candid opinions. I also thank Martin, who is clearly very passionate about his plaque, and who I'm sure is convinced of its originality and who placed in on e-stand in good faith with no deeper intent.

Regardds
Chris

**Bob Coleman** · 12-08-2007, 07:40 PM

Plaques Are Not My Area Of Expertise. My Thoughts Are Based On Judging The Work In Itself. It Is Evident That There Are Noticeable Differences In The Profile Details. This Could Result From Casting The Pieces In Different Forms. Such An Occurance Could Even Come Fro The Same Manufacturer, Who May Have Required To Produce A New Mold Due To The Overuse Of A Previous One. If This Is A War Time Piece, The Substitute From Bronze Is Logical Due To Material Rationing. What I Cannot Explain And Concerns Me Is The Lack Of Crisp Details Found In The Suject Item. It May Be The Pictures And May Not. I Personally Would Not Have This Piece. However, As I Said, This Is Not An Area I Collect So My Judgement Is Based Solely On Pieces I Had Go Through My Hands In The Past 50 Years.

**Martin Harding** · 12-08-2007, 07:42 PM

Hello Chris, I always stand by everything I sell and a refund is no problem what so ever. I realised the outcome would be to refund you from the moment the thread was started. And although the plaque I have no doubts is authentic, non the less it is not a problem.
Best Regards Martin

**Martin Harding** · 12-08-2007, 07:45 PM

White Flags ???

Just noticed the you used Chris no need for that we are the good guys think I need to go get blasted after a day like today>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jimmy's already gone

**Martin Harding** · 12-08-2007, 07:57 PM

Thank you

Hello Bob, thank you for your opinion it is much valued and appreciated. I was perhaps too harsh earlier and you perhaps agree that everyone deserves an opinion regardless on their level of expertise. From my point of view it's loss is due to the (As Dan suggested as a possiblity) Gold wash added over the zinc corrosion. As seems to be the usual case with with zinc variants a positive outcome on authenticity is difficult. However I sold this in the firm belief it was genuine and I still belive that. Howver in future I will put everything up for disscussion before I offer it for sale on e-stand
Regards Martin

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