White Named Gauleiter Tunic

[Bob Coleman]

Mark-
Thank You For The Input. I Am Quite Sure The Tunic Is Not Assembled Based Upon The Following. I Had Knowledge Of This Tunic For Many Years Through The Individual Who Was Unsuccessful In Buying The Piece Nearly 30 Years Ago. He Did Purchase A Gauleiter Armband From The Family About Six Years Ago. I Also Know The Family Still Has Items That Belonged To Gauleiter Fritz Sauchel. The Unsuccessful Buyer Would Have No Motive To Describe To Me A Tunic He Did Not Buy Six Years Prior To Me Locating This Piece. Further, All Of The Facts Of The Trail Of Provenance Matched.
It Is Evident That The Insignia And The Tunic Were Assembled At The Same Time Due To The Precise Fit Of The Collar Tab Posts And The Cloth Grommets On The Lapels. I Think That Likely The Identity Of The Owner Of This Tunic Is What Is In Question.
I Am Aware Of The Fact That Examples Of The Pattern Of Collar Tab Found On This Tunic Are Extremely Rare. Can You Tell Me If You Are Aware Of Any Other Gauleiters Wearing This Pattern Tab? I Am Curious As To The Source Of The Information You Cited. Please Note I Am Not Disagreeing With Your Statements. I Wish To Further Educate Myself.

[Mark Costa]

Bob:

I have no doubt that the tunic is real. As you said it now becomes a question of whose tunic is it. As Sprenger was not a Blood Order recipient and the tunic has no way been "assembled" then we must assume it is not Sprengers but someone elses. It seems from your post that the owners had items from several other gauleiters, so why not someone other than Sprenger. The Ley state visit has been described in several books and articles. These insignias were rushed into production for the visit before the actual final designs were approved. That is why only Grohe and Koch has ever been seen in these insignias. Other prototype insignias were also designed and worn by other personnel on this visit that were also withdrawn. No photo of any other gauleiter has ever surfaced wearing these tabs. I have several photos of both men wearing them in my collection but have never come across anyone else. And as these were prototypes my guess would be that no one else ever wore them. So whose tunic does this belong to. There were only a few gauleiters that were Blood Order holders: Franz Hofer, Schwede-Coburg, Robert Wagner, Adolf Wagner, Karl Wahl and Julius Streicher. We would need to examine the ribbon bar with existing photos to determine who of these men match. It can only be one of these six. But I might add that at one time Robert Wagner was described as being a member of this state visit but no photo has ever been produced that shows him ever being there. It maybe that he was cancelled at the last minute and hence his uniform was never used. Let discuss at my private email and I can share photos to determine the identity of this tunic.
Contact me at mark.costa@worldnet.att.net

[Bob Hritz]

Mark,

You are speaking of only the awardees of the 1st pattern blood order. I would think several of the 'golden phesants' were awarded blood orders of the second type for 'party service or inprisonment' prior to 1933.

Bob Hritz

[Mark Costa]

Bob:

the type of blood order has no bearing on the fact that only 6 gauleiters who wore the 1939 style uniform were awarded the blood order. There were no other gauleiter holders but these six.

Of the 51 gauleiters who were wore the 1939 uniform only these six held the blood order:
Franz Hofer
Karl Wahl
Adolf Wagner
Robert Wagner
Franz Schwede-Coburg
Julius Streicher

Of the 10 honorary gauleiters who were allowed to still wear a gauleiter uniform -- none of them were blood order holders.

Hence only these six gauleiters held a blood order -- no one else. I suspect the Sprenger name has been added after the war, it can not have been the tunic of Jakob Sprenger. Sprenger was not a holder of the Blood Order. So either the name has been added by someone or the blood order ribbon has been added. Either way it has been tampered with.

Mark

[James Clark]

Here is a picture of Jakob Sprenger from the early 1930s. This shows that Sprenger's ribbons bar would include another two medals (in addition to the KVK) between the EKII and Hindenburg Cross

www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/gimbel.htm

That aside, there is a great deal that I personally consider wrong with the ribbon bar shown, including amongst other things: three Spanish awards including the military and civilian classes of the Cross of Merit; the long line of Rumanian awards; the blue ribbon with eagle device long service award; and the way the entire bar is put together.

[stonemint]

Here is a wartime photo of Sprenger circa 1944--Sprenger is to Hitler's right, the one with the two-tiered ribbon bar like Bob's.

[Bob Coleman]

Interesting Image! As The Provenance On This Piece Is Rock Solid And All Of The Components Are Real, We Then Have One Of Two Situations. The First Being That The Blood Order Ribbon Was Added Around 30 Years Ago. Possible, But It Does Not Make Much Sense. The Second Possibility Is Sprenger Was Awarded The 2nd Model Blood Order, Of Which I Understand No List Of Recipients Has Ever Been Located. I Also Know Looking At The Dossiers Of Other Men Of The Time That The Files Were Not Always Updated During The War. Regardless, I Am Very Comfortable With The Piece As An Original Object And That Is What Is Most Important
I Certainly Have Appreciated All Of Those Who Have Furnished Information To Me On This Thread And Also In Private. Thanks.

[ErichS]

Rob, I didn't realize that my question regarding the BO ribbon would open such a can of worms. Either way it's a great tunic. Best, Erich

[James Clark]

Here is a wartime photo of Sprenger circa 1944--Sprenger is to Hitler's right, the one with the two-tiered ribbon bar like Bob's.

A two tier ribbon bar certainly, but I don't think it's the same one. Look at the proportions. Notice that the bar on the tunic is pretty central in relation to the pocket, overlaps the lapel and extends about as far as the arm-pit. The one in this picture starts to the right of the left-hand edge of the pocket, doesn't overlap the lapel and also extends about as far as the arm-pit. If the bar in the picture were 12 ribbons (around 18cm) wide like the one on the uniform it would extend beyond the end of his shoulder.

[Bob Coleman]

A two tier ribbon bar certainly, but I don't think it's the same one. Look at the proportions. Notice that the bar on the tunic is pretty central in relation to the pocket, overlaps the lapel and extends about as far as the arm-pit. The one in this picture starts to the right of the left-hand edge of the pocket, doesn't overlap the lapel and also extends about as far as the arm-pit. If the bar in the picture were 12 ribbons (around 18cm) wide like the one on the uniform it would extend beyond the end of his shoulder.

IT IS NOT ALWAYS THE CASE THAT A MAN WOULD WEAR THE SAME DECORATION RIBBONS OR MEDALS ON EVERY TUNIC HE WORE. HITLER IS SEEN IN MANY PREWAR PHOTOGRAPHS ONLY WEARING HIS IRON CROSS AND WOUND BADGE, NO GPB. I OWN TWO TUNICS THAT BELONGED TO THE SAME INDIVIDUAL THAT HAVE SEWN ON RIBBON BARS, THE RIBBONS ARE NOT EXACTLY THE SAME ON BOTH. NOTE THE MANY VARIATIONS OF MEDALS WORN AT DIFFERENT TIMES BY HIMMLER. THESE IMPORTANT MEN WORE WHAT THEY WANTED TO , I DOUBT IF THEY CONSIDERED AT THE TIME THAT WHAT THEY DID NEED COMPLY WITH THE COLLECTOR MARKET SIXTY PLUS YEARS HENCE. AFTER COLLECTING FOR FIFTY YEARS, I DO KNOW THAT FINDING A SOLID TWO TIER 3RD REICH RIBBON BAR IS EXTREMELY RARE IN EITHER PERIOD PHOTOS OR IN REALITY.

[James Clark]

Yes, the ribbon bar/medal bar might change but I think you'll find that generally this reflects additional awards being added or pre-3rd Reich awards being dropped when the regulations changed and unofficial or Freikorps awards were dropped. There could also be variations between regualtions depending on the type of uniform, or the organisation being represented.

The ribbon bar you show purports to be from at least 1942, due to the Ostmedaille. It does not include the two high ranking WWI awards that the owner is shown wearing in the photo. There is no reason why he would have stopped wearing them. The ribbon bar does however include at least one further WWI award that he isn't wearing in the photo and would not have been awarded after it was taken.

A simple bit of research shows that Sprenger had enough service time to have earned the gold class of the NSDAP service award before 1942. At least one source says that Sprenger received this award. But it is not included on the ribbon bar - only the silver and bronze awards are. Why would he have had a ribbon bar made in 1942 that didn't include this award?

On the most basic of levels, the way this bar has been thrown together makes no sense now and would have made no sense at the time. With the exception of the KVK, all the Third Reich awards are stuck on the end of the bar in no particular order. There seem to be a smattering of Imperial/state awards randomly thrown in amongst all the foreign awards that pad the bar out. In short, you could give a monkey a load of ribbons and it would come up with a more rational mounting job than this.

This isn't a matter of not complying with what the collecting community expects. It is about the awards that the purported recipient received and did not receive. Even without having a list of his awards, it is clear that the ribbon bar you show simply does not reflect the awards received by Jakob Sprenger.

I find it particularly disheartening that, with all the sources of information currently available, the old argument of "the important Nazis did what they wanted with awards" still persists. I certainly wouldn't want anyone reading this forum to go away with the impression that ribbon bars of the type shown here are in any way acceptable.

Show me the documents that back up the claim that Sprenger received the awards represented on the bar and I'll believe it. Otherwise not.

[wessel]

Hi Bob

Clearly your mind is now on more weightier matters, but hanks for your comments.
Anyone else?

[Gregory Koepp]

Very interesting, I sure don't know ribbon bars and sure glad others due, so can't wait to see what Bob has on the above response

greg

[Klaas B.]

Hi people, i'm new to the forum and just like to add my two cents.

The pictures of AH not wearing the GPB, are these pictures maybe prior the introduction of the GPB? Of course it can, but Sprenger is never seen with a BO (or am I mistaken)
Uniforms on this level, must be free from any doubts. Especially the ones that cost a fortune. I cannot believe that Sprenger never is pictured with with the BO is he had one.

Greetings,
Klaas

[Mark Costa]

Klaas:

Sprenger has never been seen wearing the Blood Order or its ribbon. I have many photos of Sprenger wearing various uniforms over the years and none ever show him with it. Not even photos of him at the annual Nov 8-9 get togethers in Munich --where he certainly would have worn it like all the other holders. It has been suggested that the reason his name does not appear on the list of recipients is that he was a second style recipient of which records were scarce. With that being said -- the very last blood order was awarded to Reinhard Heydrich in June of 1942 and so if Sprenger had received the order he would have been given it before that date. Hence he would have had at least 3 years in which to wear it on his uniform and no photos after 1942 show him with it. As the blood order was one, if not the highest regarded decoration of the party, one would think he would wear it on his uniform. Bottom line here -- Sprenger was not a recipient and the odds of this blood order ribbon having been added to this uniform after the fact, is highly probable or this is not Sprengers uniform but someones elses.

Mark