Waffen-SS Recruiting Poster - Opinions?

[daveward]

I know that this is a fairly common poster (sometimes referred to as the "Paul Newman" poster), but I've always thought it was a beautiful piece, and I've found this one for a very attractive price. I'm posting it here so that I can get some opinions with regard to its authenticity. I am not very familiar with paper items, so I'm hoping that the knowledgeable members of this forum can help me out as far as the printing style and paper quality are concerned. Here is an overall photo of the poster:



Here are to photos that show the top and bottom of this poster in more detail:





Here are some photos that show the printing style/pattern:





Here's a photo that shows the paper on which the poser is printed:



Finally, here's a photo that shows the overall finish on the poster:



Please let me know what you guys think! Thanks a lot!!

[Michael73]

It is modern reprint

[daveward]

It is modern reprint

Interesting... May I ask what characteristics you noticed that led you to this decision? I'd like to learn more...

[TonyS]

These should have a somewhat glossy finish. You can see the flash reflection in this period photo off the bottom of that particular poster. It's one of the few I've encountered with that type of finish.

[daveward]

Tony, I was aware of the semi-gloss finish, and I have that period photo saved in a folder on my computer, but having never seen one of these in person, I wasn't sure how "reflective" it was supposed to be. I also wasn't sure whether the photos of this poster were taken with or without a flash, which could impact the amount of glare. I included the last photo to show what I assumed to be a small amount of glare resulting from the photo being taken at an angle (the poster looks a little lighter in some areas in this photo)... I know that the closeups of the letters seem to show a "rough" texture rather than a smooth one, as you'd expect with glossy finish. Is this a bad one, in your opinion?

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

100% original.

Guys, to date no blank fakes currently circulate.

Only two types of poor fakes exist with the faked address of the Ersatzkommando Frankreich Der Waffen-SS in Paris.

It should be noted that a different model was a bit different, and is pictured in the shot taken at the HQ of the Ersatzkommnado Frankreich Der Waffen-SS in Paris, avenue du Recteur Poincaré (posted by TonyS), probably in 1943.
This poster had a larger orange stripe at the bottom, and an similar original, done locally for the Dienstelle of Nancy, is in the collection of the Mémorial de la Shoah in Paris (i checked it with the museum specialist who is also... buying a lot in auctions for the museum).

This (early ?) model was in the collection of René Bail, french writer specialist of the Algerian War, and was published in the first Jean Mabire book about the French in the Waffen-SS in 1973. This is probably this book that gave idea to the fakers to make a "local" parisian fake poster with the address of the avenue Poincaré in Paris.

It should be noted that the two fakes are easy to spot, even more with a black UV light. I own the common fake one (which is always folded in 4), and the second fake is more a fantaisy model due to the modern font used for the text at the bottom.

I already did a dozen of posts on this poster, even more giving info on the life of the main caracter on it, the location of the pictures, and the unit of the soldiers.

This poster was used as early as 1943, as i recently found an original with the stamp of the Ersatzkommando Flandern Der Waffen-SS on it (and yes it is an original, and yes i'm starting to getting quite good on material used by the dozen of Erganzungsstellen in Europe ^_^).

So Dave if the price is good, you can go for it.
A friend may have an original for sale by the way.

See You

Vince

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

as i previously said, in my opinion the "glossy finish" is not the main feature of this poster.
This is the color of the orange stripe, and the actual detail (and of course the fact that no blank fake exist to my knowledge - this model is fairly common).







I would be interested to see a fake of the blank original.

See You

Vince

[daveward]

Vince, I'm a bit confused now... I've seen another blank example of this poster for sale, and it seems to be very reflective. Here's a photo:



I do see what you mean about the poster in the photo having a wider orange band along the bottom. The ones in the posters I've seen for sale seem to be narrower.

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

what i'm saying is that as no fake of this poster is known, the glossy finish can't be the main point to check (yes the original is a bit glossy, but you should focus on the orange color, the size and the clarity of the detail).
With laserprinting, glossy finish may be an important feature that may trick collectors in case of blank fakes are done in the future.

For example the "fantasy" parisian fake is glossy.



From left to right :

- original
- original, bigger size, larger orange strip, local model done for the Nancy (east of France) Dienstelle, originally in the René Bail collection, picture taken from Jean Mabire "La brigade Frankreich", Fayard 1973, bought by the Mémorial de la Shoah recently, still in their collection
- common parisian fake, smaller than blank model, copied the Nancy text (but as the orange strip is smaller, the text is far too small). Note the light orange color, main point to check.
- "fantasy" parisian fake (check the font...), glossy finish

See You

Vince

[daveward]

Alright, I feel like I should explain my hesitancy... Here is a comparison of 4 different posters:



From left to right: Vince's original example; another poster for sale; the poster I'm looking at; Vince's fake example

They're all very similar, and each one shows a slight variation in color (likely due to age and/or the quality of the photograph). The text on the fake poster was obviously added in before the poster was printed, and I worry that if the faker decided to remove this text and not fold the poster, it would be a very convincing reproduction... Aside from the text, it is certainly quite similar to the one I'm looking at.

Another thing I've noticed is that the poster in my original thread seems to have a sharper level of detail than the other examples I've seen. Here's a comparison, with the poster in question on the right (look at the detail in the man's cheek and temple area):



I can't really tell whether the poster I'm considering has "crisper" details, or just "grainier" details... Once again, this could be the result of differences in the quality of the photographs. I wouldn't expect a copy to be MORE detailed than the original, but if the detail is "grainy" due to a different printing process, it could be something to look at...

I'm really hoping that someone who owns an authentic example of this poster would be kind enough to post some good closeup shots like the ones in my original post so that I can compare the printing ink pattern and the type of paper used. That would really clear some things up!

As for the controversial "gloss" issue, the seller has confirmed that this poster does NOT have a glossy finish whatsoever. He has also stated that the paper seems to have yellowed with age, but based on the photograph of the paper, it looks pretty white to me...

[TonyS]

Vince that's an impressive amount of research on that one poster.

However, if there are no known blank fakes and as the known blank originals are all glossy (as far as I know) then what does that make the very first poster in this thread? It's either a non glossy original or a non glossy fake? It can't be both....

[Max Wünsche]

Vince, I'm a bit confused now... I've seen another blank example of this poster for sale, and it seems to be very reflective. Here's a photo:

I do see what you mean about the poster in the photo having a wider orange band along the bottom. The ones in the posters I've seen for sale seem to be narrower.

With so much ink on the paper it can give off a sheen effect, especially with a flash from a camera... Although I would not go as far as to call the paper shiny or glossy...

[Max Wünsche]

Fantastic extra shots from the Kriegsberichter files Vince....

Hi,

as i previously said, in my opinion the "glossy finish" is not the main feature of this poster.
This is the color of the orange stripe, and the actual detail (and of course the fact that no blank fake exist to my knowledge - this model is fairly common).







I would be interested to see a fake of the blank original.

See You

Vince

[Max Wünsche]

I just looked over mine and it definitely has the crisper details
as per the close-up you have shown on the right.

Alright, I feel like I should explain my hesitancy... Here is a comparison of 4 different posters:



From left to right: Vince's original example; another poster for sale; the poster I'm looking at; Vince's fake example

They're all very similar, and each one shows a slight variation in color (likely due to age and/or the quality of the photograph). The text on the fake poster was obviously added in before the poster was printed, and I worry that if the faker decided to remove this text and not fold the poster, it would be a very convincing reproduction... Aside from the text, it is certainly quite similar to the one I'm looking at.

Another thing I've noticed is that the poster in my original thread seems to have a sharper level of detail than the other examples I've seen. Here's a comparison, with the poster in question on the right (look at the detail in the man's cheek and temple area):



I can't really tell whether the poster I'm considering has "crisper" details, or just "grainier" details... Once again, this could be the result of differences in the quality of the photographs. I wouldn't expect a copy to be MORE detailed than the original, but if the detail is "grainy" due to a different printing process, it could be something to look at...

I'm really hoping that someone who owns an authentic example of this poster would be kind enough to post some good closeup shots like the ones in my original post so that I can compare the printing ink pattern and the type of paper used. That would really clear some things up!

As for the controversial "gloss" issue, the seller has confirmed that this poster does NOT have a glossy finish whatsoever. He has also stated that the paper seems to have yellowed with age, but based on the photograph of the paper, it looks pretty white to me...

[daveward]

I just looked over mine and it definitely has the crisper details
as per the close-up you have shown on the right.

That's certainly encouraging! I'm curious as to whether your example has the same pattern of ink deposition, and whether the paper has the same composition (in the photo I provided, it looks as if the paper almost has a "rough" texture to it). If you could let me know if yours looks the same with regard to those details, it would really help me out! Thanks!