DKiG documents

[John Henderson]

Thanks for these comments. I think it is only right to openly discuss these.
Its dangerous anyway, collecting, so to keep this in the pm format I would disagree. It closes the forum up, to a few who know, with the rest guessing. Making the forum elitist.
Now that said, I would raise the following points.
Its common knowledge that some documents , after the prelimanary ones, were awarded later.How much later is anyones guess. And thats all that is. A guess.
The stamp for me is also correct, after looking in the forum archives prior to bidding on the document.
Now according to Cole Bush, there should be pencil lines within the red ink, if the document is not a fake.
So I would ask him again if this is true?
With all due respect, I would now draw to your attention the signature of the first and third documents posted by DDD7. Both signatures are different. The top one having the letter T cut short and the latter example with the T longer. In the second example of the award document the letter E has the start of a loop, like my document. This is also a difference I have seen in Keitels signature. So are we to assume that the document with the stubby T posted is also a fake? Due to these characteristics.
It has also been suggested to me that the red writing is not in keeping with other examples.
But it is clear to see that the three examples posted all have different styles of lettering.
Two people constantly are also making a mistake here, with the items I have posted. Whether its just not reading the posts or just not interested enough. So for the record, the DKiG I posted in the badges forum is NOT part of the grouping.
These docs were bought from a reputable auctionhouse and friend, who is also a member here and of the BDOS in Germany.
So with the points raised, I am not convinced....... yet.
But that said people can and do make mistakes. So I will email them and see what they have to say.
regards John

[Cole Bush]

Please understand, not all the pencil under the red is original, you have to check the whole document, yours is fake in every way, i list to you in PM. You say the original ones has no pencil line, i would like you to check more original documents.
Anyway you have right to insist your opinion as it is original, no problem.

[Cole Bush]

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=397881

This is original from every way! Only one difference: It is dated 1943 ( version )
Ok, say much is dangerous, pls do more research.

[John Henderson]

Ok Cole, I have been looking at award documents relating to these since you pmd me offering DKiG items.
I would again point out the following.
Since these documents were bought together, surely a good reproduction would have copied the preliminary signature exactly. So if the fakers are that good, the signature would certainly not be the stumbling block. And I am quite sure Keitel didnt sit signing his name making sure every letter matched 100%.
Secondly I note from researching the signature here on the forum and elsewhere, that the "dog leg" T was evident in August 1943 as posted by member CSP. With a document posted by another member with the same styled signature in June 1943. This is only 7 months from my document.
Now taking the stamp, which is clear, measures exactly 34.87mm the same as the prelim doc. 23.93mm wing tip to wing tip. and the dots 2.65mm from the circumference. All as the prelim doc. So, if the stamp is a fake as you say, then by your reasoning, post war, why does it measure exactly with the prelim stamp?
Its also more than feesable that more than one person wrote these formal docs. as proved by the different styles posted by member DDD777
I am certainly not ruling this document out just yet.

[Cole Bush]

John, i never take measurement upon the diameter of the seals both on formal and preliminary document. I don't think Mr.VGD and Mr.DDD do it as well. Please do more understanding about my words "vivid" in PM, this has another meaning in collection: sprite or soul. Take measuring is common to do, faker has hands to do as well, BUT, the soul the spirit is very very to do, for example, somebody wants to copy another Cole, maybe everything he can do, but the most difficult is my soul, my spirit, my mind, my way.....
Can you post some original examples dated 1942? Do it, then you will find difference. Sitting, and taking a smoke, then you will find the souls, as i said, it is hard to describle, it is from experience. Many books is doing the description, that is "physical description", nobody writes its soul/spirit description, it's diffiuclt, it depands upon your understanding, experience, your eyes, your love to DK or something else.

Cole

[Cole Bush]

DDD, VGD said clearly, you have to listen to, and do your researchings again. They are my Veteran/Teacher!!
But everybody will do mistake, no problem, maybe they made
a fast glance then, made conclusion. When i first took a look on the document, seeing the original pre. doc. i almost say "good".
Hopefully you will get a correct opinion in the near future. I will be glad to hear that.

Cole

[DDD777]

Hallo everybody,
I think my examples show very clear, than the seal of DK BU in the start of the theme is not specific for this time period and this is only a little part of the mistakes in this document!!!
About 20000 messages of my 3 moderators forums show that i want to divide with my knowledge and to learn more, but this don't mean, that i must write a text-books for stupid DK fake makers. My opinion everybody must think with his own head, to learn on his own mistakes and to ask before buy something, this is the mission of the forums, not to show to the fake makers what kind of mistakes they make in this time.
The DK BU is 101% fake, John Henderson and ,,reputable auctionhouse and friend, who is also a member here and of the BDOS in Germany” can believe in this or not believe, this is his choice and is absolute indifferently for me, somebody believe me or not, once again sorry, but this is the holly truth.
All the best for everybody and have a nice collecting.

[Lionel H.]

Hi all. Once more, discussing about evereything here makes no Sense. Dear John, Cole is right, first point is very clear : A formal Doc. FROM 1942 without pencil letters within red lettering from the name IS NOT Original. Now you know it, and thank to this post, the Fakers too. Next one produced will have the pencil letters.....
Now don't measure the Stamp, it is obvious that is the same. But look at it's location compared to others FROM AUG.1942, compare the lettering, compare side by side the Thickness from the printed letters, compare everything.
Please consider too, the "miserable" aspect from the whole hand written part from this one, compared to the originals.
Cole, DDD, I and numerous other well informed Guys already saw this Award doc before you bought it. Fakers-Team biggest problem is always how to sell it not themselves but through Channel with good Reputation. Then, saying that this one is 100% Fake doesn't mean automatically that the auction House where you bought it just sell s....., it would not be right, they are probably not specialists in DK Formal Awards and are probably better in other Matters.... If they sell more of this s... in the coming Months, then I will probably change my Mind.
Well... it will be my last post on this Thread. Convince anyone who just want to be convinced he made a good Deal is sometimes difficult. But inform him and the Community is good enough !

[Simon O.]

A general question. Does anybody know what the waiting time was for the formal doc around the time in question? Was that the same for everybody or were some sent quicker than others?

[DDD777]

A general question. Does anybody know what the waiting time was for the formal doc around the time in question? Was that the same for everybody or were some sent quicker than others?

If i understud your question correctly, take a look to this link, you don’t need to know Russian or to be registered there to understand the idea:

http://sammler.ru/index.php?showtopic=84010&st=0

[DDD777]

Another example, my opinion from the same ,,factory":



in this case, fake is the DK VB.

[DDD777]

Enjoy my ,,scan collection" of fake DK VBs & BUs, maybe this helps to anybody in the future:

http://sammler.ru/index.php?showtopic=68245&st=0

Very good ,,business" friends, somebody buy blanks from 20 till 100.EUR, make ,,seal" for 20-30.EUR, some drawing and signing and sell all this ,,artefakts'' to credulous collectors for 1000-1500.EUR. Congrats, but not in this time.

[John Henderson]

Hello, I have been away, from the forum over the last couple of weeks with work.
That said, there are a few points I feel need raised.
Of the fake documents shown by DDD777, with the exception of two hand written in red ink, they are all typed. So these are completely different from the document I posted. The "fake" documents which are written in red ink, have no pencil lines underneath the ink. My example has.
Of the "fake" documents shown in the link, five have no stamp. With the first, the stamp is in pink ink, over the text at the bottom, and the remainder being smudged or faint in appearance.
The Hoeffer example has no underlying pencil template. The Fuchs example looks crude in its font.
None of these fakes are remotely like the Bauer document.
If we take the document in post number 26. Where DDD777 notes in his opinion that this "fake" is from the same "factory" as the Bauer example, I would respond thus,
If you look at the month written in red ink, the lettering is completely different, the letters N, B and R in particular. The 9 and 4 are also completely different. I would suggest, if these are from the same factory, I would expect the lettering to be alike. The 9 in the Johann Fellinger is more akin to the 9 in the "original" document posted in post number 11.
I have not gone into every detail I have noticed regarding the text in the document, but I have paid attention to the thickness/ thinness of the lines etc.
In the recipients name, compare the letters H A and R
The stamp is different, as is the signature. If its clear to the other two members that the Bauer prelim. doc is good , then having the same stamp should also be a "good sign" for the formal document.
708VGD has shared his opinion stating that if the formal document, does not have pencil underneath the red ink then it is not original. This point I have already responded to. The Bauer doc. has this feature.
As an engineer, measurements are everything in my trade, and is also a useful tool in collecting, as any badge and medal collector knows. Its easy to dismiss something that may not replicate another example, exactly, but I would say this. Write your signature twenty or thirty times all at once. Are they exactly the same?
Use a stamp the same amount of times, will it appear on the paper in exactly the same place?
Finally for this evening, one member here after faking the document out at the beginning asked me tonight if the document was fake or real.
I would say this to him, its certainly not helpful to pass an opinion, if you do not know.
I have pmd the other members here first before responding.
If, like the other members here have intimated that this is a new "fake" and its not good to give the info to the fakers, then I'm afraid its too late, as they had all the info before making this one.
regards John

[DDD777]

Hello John, choise is yours, you can keep it.
In this case congratulations with the new DK BU in your collection.