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    #16
    maybe

    i agree with randy@treadways on some points. i don't believe the bullet impact pattern is correct for the soldiers to have been lined up against the wall and shot. i think they could have died inside the bunker, but maybe from concussion blast ?? hence lack of gunshot wounds... and dumped outside later

    that thesis is great reading... thanks for the link...

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      #17
      Yep, could be a blast inside the bunker. But then we're back to why give the man his crutch back when piling the men up. Why put the man's cap back on his head? Possibly for photographic effect I suppose.

      Cyanide is not responsible. Troops were not given cyanide 'just in case'.

      Regarding the cap, my point wasn't it is mismatched with the panzer uniform. The head does not belong to the panzer man's body. The body cannot be contorted in such a way. The head is behind the pile of bodies.

      Regards,
      Chris.

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        #18
        Concussive effects from a nearby blast outside the bunker amplified by the concrete wall? No damage to the bodies from shrapnel (or bullets), bleeding from the nose and ears. It wouldn't be the first case when a group died in such a manner.

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          #19
          Boots taken too...

          Comment

            #20
            The Germans also had the bad habit or were ordered, of fighting right up until the enemy was right in their face. Then they would throw the hands up. Or fight to the last ammo and then surrender. This p&%^#d off the US, Brit and Can. troops.

            Kelly

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              #21
              Originally posted by W Petz View Post
              I don't believe all were SS members as I see at least one LW member in a fliegerbluse and a possible second one that has rank insignia but no SS Sleeve Eagle.

              I tend to agree that they may have been stacked there for collection by graves registration and a good opportunity for a photo shoot to make it more newsworthy by the photographer .
              By 1945 it wasn't always possible to give Waffen-SS uniforms to men transferred from the Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe, or stragglers collected into a unit. So the men kept wearing whatever they wore before.

              A friend of mine did research on the southern sector of the Western Front, and found that men of the 7. Fallschirmjaeger Division shot some American prisoners around January of 1945. The men of the US 42nd Infantry Division then started shooting the next prisoners they took who wore camouflage. These happened to be from the 17. SS-Panzergrenadier Division, and this started a back-and-forth between the two units. Certain other units made a point to stay out of the killing of prisoners, notably the US 70th Infantry Division and the 6. SS-Gebirgs Division. They had such respect for each other that they held joint reunions for many years, after the war.

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                #22
                Hello Marc.

                Where can I find more information about joint reunions.

                I find this really interesting!

                Cheers,
                Chris.

                Comment

                  #23
                  The most persuasive speculation so far, based on the evidence actually observed in the photograph, is that these people died of the effects of a concussion blast rather than by firing squad execution (organized squad or unorganized is irrelevant) or cyanide suicide. But almost no possibility can be totally ruled out, because there are limits to what can be seen in the photograph.

                  Some people like to quickly assume they were executed, then spend time speculating whether it was renegade soldiers or organized by officers, what kind of weapons or bullets might have been used, etc etc. There is no doubt that that happened from time to time at a few of the thousands of surrender opportunities across Europe. One of the incidents is seen in the movie Private Ryan.
                  But to quickly jump to the conclusion that any stack of German bodies was the result of such an atrocity... is a huge leap.

                  Concussive blast seems most reasonable to me.... but the truth is, we'll never know. It's just a snapshot without context, and will have to be left that way if and until new accompanying evidence comes to light- like adjacent photos on the roll of film... or the recollections of somebody who was there that day. (Like the discovery not too long ago of a letter from a Mexican soldier who witnessed the bayonet execution of Crockett and Bowie at the Alamo, rather than them 'going down fighting' as seen in the John Wayne movie.)

                  We could just as easily spend hours and hours speculating whether Bin Laden was given ample opportunity to surrender before the Seals pulled the trigger a few months ago in Pakistan. Not too many people care to engage in that kind of mental gymnastics over something so recent, so I'm curious why we're doing it over something that happened as combat was drawing to a close 67 years ago?

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                    #24
                    I don't know mate but I hope this thread doesn't go downhill like the thread in the SS forum.

                    With regards to the 67 years, we're history buffs!

                    Comment

                      #25
                      Originally posted by randy@treadways View Post
                      We could just as easily spend hours and hours speculating whether Bin Laden was given ample opportunity to surrender before the Seals pulled the trigger a few months ago in Pakistan. Not too many people care to engage in that kind of mental gymnastics over something so recent, so I'm curious why we're doing it over something that happened as combat was drawing to a close 67 years ago?
                      I think you will find there has been much discussion/speculation about the Bin laden raid.

                      if you ask me surrender was never going to be an option for Bin Laden as he knows too much sensitive information

                      but I digress

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                        #26
                        I'm not sure where to find information on the joint reunions, sorry. I learned about them from my late friend, Keith Bonn of Aegis/Aberjona. He extensively studied the 1944-45 Vosges fighting, and became friends with veterans from both sides. It was through his research and veteran contacts that he learned about the joint reunions.

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                          #27
                          Thanks Marc.

                          I like the idea of them drinking beer relating war stories.

                          Cheers,
                          Chris.

                          Comment

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