Hemann Goring signature Card

[Jeremy]

Weweslburg

oh dear... another 'Koerlin'. same old rants about expertise (show me where I make any claims like this), with nothing to show informative to the topic...

well, if you are going to say that stuff is fake, you might want to take the time to show people you actually know what you are talking about and improve our understanding...

I haven't said anything about the authenticity of the Goering sig... I just asked for more info and examples as to why you think they are fake... what's the problem? just try to stick to the question asked, post some examples, and keep calm...

An aside, I haven't said all Rommel's are fake in any post. I have seen sigs from the 30's to the 40's like you but I know those on the document series in question are fake. So, do you believe that Haas is wrong in his analysis of the typewriting? Do you believe those documents are authentic and the sigs authentic?

Obersalzburg, it is not my Goering card...

[Weweslburg]

Göring

oh dear... another 'Koerlin'. same old rants about expertise (show me where I make any claims like this), with nothing to show informative to the topic...

well, if you are going to say that stuff is fake, you might want to take the time to show people you actually know what you are talking about and improve our understanding...

I haven't said anything about the authenticity of the Goering sig... I just asked for more info and examples as to why you think they are fake... what's the problem? just try to stick to the question asked, post some examples, and keep calm...

An aside, I haven't said all Rommel's are fake in any post. I have seen sigs from the 30's to the 40's like you but I know those on the document series in question are fake. So, do you believe that Haas is wrong in his analysis of the typewriting? Do you believe those documents are authentic and the sigs authentic?

Obersalzburg, it is not my Goering card...

What do you mean saying "another Koerlin"? The only one who is ranting is you. You asked for info ? I gave my detailed info and opinion - just scroll down. Why post some examples ? JUST search on the internet for Göring signatures and you and every hobby collector will find out that this "Göring signed card" is just a crap. Anyway, Jeremy, please let´s stop this eternal discussion, because myself and of course "every" UACC autograph collectors club member knows that the card is crap. So "please" let me have my opinion - OK ? Is this possible ? Thank you, Mr. Expert.

[Jeremy]

no examples

OK, no worries if you don't have any examples to post to support your opinion... that was all I asked before you spat your dummy...

no comment on the questions about the fake Rommel docs then, one of which is confirmed as being typed by a post-war typewriter is being sold on consignment for a UACC member... so the UACC badge is no guarantee of being 100% correct...

[Weweslburg]

Jeremy !

Jeremy, first I want to tell you, that I got a private Email today which made me pretty sad. A user of this website wrote to me and first told me who Mr. Koerlin is. He told me that he bought several items from this guy and that Koerlin "had" a good reputation, but his reputation had been destroyed because of people like you who are self appointed experts, who even don´t speak, write or can understand German. He wrote much about you and your behaving and attitude, but that´s not important for the public here. Anyway, those were just the words the guy used - not mine ! Anyway, Jeremy, I now took the time to post some documents of mine, just to prove to you and all the other members here that you are just a wannabe and that you unfortunately have no friggin´idea as far as signatures are concerned - especially - Rommel - signatures. You obviously only know about Rommel´s Africa signatures, but there exist some documents on this planet, showing that Rommel had a very different way signing documents. You should know Jeremy that Rommel also had a life before he became Commander. Anyway, scroll down and you will see "some" examples of some "abnormal" Rommel signatures AND I already hear you scream FAKE-FAKE-FAKE !

And by the way Jeremy: Those are just " few" of my approx. 5000 third Reich documents. Now you can give me some other names like wannabe, poser etc. Fact is, that "EVERY" person on this planet changes his signatures in the course of his life - YOU as "Expert" should now this - or not ? If not, I am gladly ready to post further few hundreds of documents, signed by well know high ranked Nazis in different styles and periodes.
[IMG]<p><img src="http://cdn01.trixum.de/upload2/6/S/6S2UOtjzoJgD134004535058P4871.jpg"></p><p><img src="http://cdn03.trixum.de/upload2/b/e/beHlwBNEaL2c134004535917P4871.jpg"></p><p><img src="http://cdn01.trixum.de/upload2/t/H/tHP6pLQ1Axsb134004536746P4871.jpg"></p><p><img src="http://cdn01.trixum.de/upload2/m/C/mCLJB1sRVTaZ134004537442P4871.jpg"></p><p><img src="http://cdn01.trixum.de/upload2/l/g/lgHxjX51OBu6134004538234P4871.jpg"></p><p><img src="http://cdn01.trixum.de/upload2/4/6/46AHyg9BCIR2134004538997P4871.jpg"></p><p><img src="http://cdn01.trixum.de/upload2/r/Z/rZbCoRhyvP9l134004539634P4871.jpg"></p><p><img src="http://cdn01.trixum.de/upload2/o/F/oFXidDTEBnt5134004540326P4871.jpg"></p><p><img src="http://cdn01.trixum.de/upload2/3/v/3vbKYsP86iSc134004541125P4871.jpg"></p><p><img src="http://cdn01.trixum.de/upload2/k/q/kqU6y0uoda9h134004541852P4871.jpg"></p><p><img src="http://cdn03.trixum.de/upload2/n/R/nRO6w9eg1luv134004542639P4871.jpg"></p><p><img src="http://cdn01.trixum.de/upload2/Q/k/Qk7aNeXSD3v4134004543496P4871.jpg"></p><p><img src="http://cdn01.trixum.de/upload2/W/R/WRwd2hJnXz3F134004544025P4871.jpg"></p><p><img src="http://cdn03.trixum.de/upload2/N/k/Nk57arWiVyCA134004544655P4871.jpg"></p><p><img src="http://cdn01.trixum.de/upload2/E/D/EDogZJTW5Nj6134004545487P4871.jpg"></p><p><img src="http://cdn03.trixum.de/upload2/h/j/hjKzFHeobIMN134004546213P4871.jpg"></p><p><img src="http://cdn01.trixum.de/upload2/4/G/4GdtLhlXpYrj134004546957P4871.jpg"></p><p><img src="http://cdn03.trixum.de/upload2/m/4/m4kCE9DVpz5Z134004547775P4871.jpg"></p><p><img src="http://cdn01.trixum.de/upload2/r/3/r3BVal8weGXv134004548441P4871.jpg"></p><p><img src="http://cdn01.trixum.de/upload2/q/f/qfNwL7RQDSEO134004549166P4871.jpg"></p><p><img src="http://cdn01.trixum.de/upload2/x/z/xzI1pymw9LFJ134004549831P4871.jpg"></p><p><img src="http://cdn03.trixum.de/upload2/q/n/qnCxfFs49LEu134004550746P4871.jpg"></p><p><img src="http://cdn01.trixum.de/upload2/E/D/EDC48JbGBNvu134004551312P4871.jpg"></p><p><img src="http://cdn01.trixum.de/upload2/D/X/DXATNzlWImoY134004552161P4871.jpg"></p><p><img src="http://cdn01.trixum.de/upload2/2/C/2CKVmtIDbLaX134004558118P4871.jpg"></p><p><img src="http://cdn01.trixum.de/upload2/T/p/TpxbYMAFuSH4134004552722P4871.jpg"></p><p><img src="http://cdn03.trixum.de/upload2/L/2/L2kHP5nCUdRX134004553782P4871.jpg"></p><p><img src="http://cdn01.trixum.de/upload2/O/b/Ob41z3xkFunU134004554513P4871.jpg"></p><p><img src="http://cdn01.trixum.de/upload2/t/D/tD2lf6gynFMR134004555461P4871.jpg"></p><p><img src="http://cdn01.trixum.de/upload2/S/n/Snzwh15rt3eY134004556236P4871.jpg"></p><p><img src="http://cdn01.trixum.de/upload2/0/X/0Xy3WBExKfDb134004556904P4871.jpg"></p><p><img src="http://cdn01.trixum.de/upload2/Q/k/QkBEJFUOiy9K134004557696P4871.jpg"></p>[/IMG]

[tazpants]

Brilliant. Sorry but that made me laugh out loud. Nice docs.

[Jeremy]

and your point is?

Weweslburg,

Yes, Rommel docs seem fine, no big deal, but I think you obviously miss the point with your immature, simplistic and excitable approach... if you read my posts properly you will see that I focus on a particular set of documents (and show some good examples for comparison from precisely the same time period on docs and also Ralf's signed photos) and a series of the usual fake clippings. I also mentioned that I do not think all Rommel sigs are fake... I am typing this slowly for you...

Now, if you concentrate for a moment and compare your sigs to those in the fake series of docs and clippings in that thread instead you might actually notice the difference between them. It is not about the tired argument of sig variation, and those docs in the other thread are typed with a post-war typewriter - fact. But even without that proof, a look at the Rommel sigs on those documents (I know you say it only takes you 3 seconds-yawn-so it should be quick) will tell someone of you self-stated expertise that those are indeed fake sigs on post-war typed docs. You state in that thread that they are all authentic docs, which is a joke, of course, that is all the more obvious now with the material you show here. It is pointless showing pre-war Rommel sigs, given the documents I show are fake 'wartime'. Try a more specific, educated approach rather than a random shotgun effort and we might get somewhere. Post it on the correct thread though...

As for Goering, I asked you to post 1945 sigs, again not earlier sigs... pointless for comparison with the card in this thread.

A nice sob story about the private email you received... I got my tissues out... try to focus on the sigs instead of being a drama queen and drivelling on about expertise and your 5000 docs (further yawns) and sticking up for dealers such as poor, poor Mr. Koerlin and his factory outlet... should I tell you about my PM's of support for finally pinning him down?? no, because it is just hot air to do so... he knows he got busted anyway... read all the related threads carefully and then tell me how and why you can't see the dodgy Marseille, Hartmann, Schnaufer, Rudel, Wick etc etc crap out there...

[Weweslburg]

Post war typewriter

Jeremy, your comment....are typed with a post-war typewriter - fact.... is again a fairy tale and myth ! There still exist millions of typewriters in Germany from the 50´s to the 90´s who does have "EXACTLY" the same letters as typewriters from the 40´s !!!!!!!!!!

Scroll down and you will see an example. I published a third Reich document as well as a paper sheet - written by myself - with an Adler typewriter from the 80´s who belonged my mother. As you can see, it is the exact same type face. All those eternal stories about typewriters, black light negative paper sheets and all those other crap makes me sick ! Already in the early 30´s, the I.G. Farben manufactured paper which was NOT black light negative. Please stop to spread this eternal crap and inform you. [IMG]<p><img src="http://cdn01.trixum.de/upload2/b/G/bGhuc0XJ8ZFT134036019378P4871.jpg"></p> <p><img src="http://cdn01.trixum.de/upload2/9/s/9sOzjeoEbJ1h134036020423P4871.jpg"></p> <p><img src="http://cdn01.trixum.de/upload2/z/C/zCQ0etENpDGl134036021116P4871.jpg"></p>[/IMG]

[Jeremy]

rubbish

hahaha, you really do not know what you are talking about. we have a world-renowned typewriting expert in haas who has proven that the marseille docs were typed post-war - please look carefully at his analysis before you come up with such a farcical and amateur response. he focuses on the features of particular characters which enable him to identify a document as post-war, typed using a particular typewriter...

He also confirms those rommel docs were typed with a post-war typewriter... no fairytale, no myth, just fact...

if you are struggling to understand the content on the mentioned threads, i suggest u contact haas before u post more mickey mouse analyses. i am embarrassed for u.

[Torpedomaat]

As you can see, it is the exact same type face.

I think many here can see distinct differences of the typeface designs of "e" and "f" between these two typewriters.
The analysis expert will be able to find more differences.

Regards,
Haruki

[max history]

Wewelsburg,
You have posted some very nice material here, but then you went and ruined it by attaching immature comments. What a pity.
As an observation, some of the Rommel signatures you state are written with indelible pencil have the appearance of being carbon copy signatures. I concede that the only way of telling if this is the case is physically examining them, but they do give that impression from your images.
If you disagree with the typewriting expert found by Jeremy, you should state your own qualifications which enable you to do so. Personally, I agree with Haruki as I can see subtle differences in the two typed examples you have posted and I expect an expert could highlight any differences, with academic reasons.
I hope this discussion does not descend further with more personal insults.
Regards,
Max.

[Weweslburg]

Your comment

Wewelsburg,
You have posted some very nice material here, but then you went and ruined it by attaching immature comments. What a pity.
As an observation, some of the Rommel signatures you state are written with indelible pencil have the appearance of being carbon copy signatures. I concede that the only way of telling if this is the case is physically examining them, but they do give that impression from your images.
If you disagree with the typewriting expert found by Jeremy, you should state your own qualifications which enable you to do so. Personally, I agree with Haruki as I can see subtle differences in the two typed examples you have posted and I expect an expert could highlight any differences, with academic reasons.
I hope this discussion does not descend further with more personal insults.
Regards,
Max.

Maxhistory, I really don´t care what kind of impressions you have, but you make yourself ridiculous if you claim that these docs were not signed by Rommel OR that these signatures are even copies ! Too bad !

Interesting to read that Jeremy is also an typewriting "EXPERT". It seems that this guy is an expert for everything ! In this matter I will - of course - step back, because it has no sense to discuss with an expert who doubts the reputation of serious collectors and the authenticity of many documents, but who declare at the same time that this discussed item was signed by Göring, although every real collector can recognize this fake within seconds. Anyway, you´re right, let´s stop this eternal discussion. As already written. I have my opinion and expert jeremy and you as his follower and fan have your own. I wish you all the best in the future with your hobby. regards Weweslburg

[max history]

Maxhistory, I really don´t care what kind of impressions you have, but you make yourself ridiculous if you claim that these docs were not signed by Rommel OR that these signatures are even copies ! Too bad !

Interesting to read that Jeremy is also an typewriting "EXPERT". It seems that this guy is an expert for everything ! In this matter I will - of course - step back, because it has no sense to discuss with an expert who doubts the reputation of serious collectors and the authenticity of many documents, but who declare at the same time that this discussed item was signed by Göring, although every real collector can recognize this fake within seconds. Anyway, you´re right, let´s stop this eternal discussion. As already written. I have my opinion and expert jeremy and you as his follower and fan have your own. I wish you all the best in the future with your hobby. regards Weweslburg

Wewelsburg,
This reply says a lot about you. I'm not sure exactly why you are contributing to this forum if you don't care about other opinions. Something you have lambasted Jeremy for in previous rantings by you. I have my own idea why you have suddenly appeared here attacking Jeremy and anyone who doubts your sacred word, but I'll keep that to myself, not wishing to get into personal spats even though you rudely call me ridiculous.
You may well have access to many documents, but that does not mean that you know what you are talking about and your response clearly indicates you do not. I referred to the "appearance" of a carbon copy signature. If you knew anything about signatures, you would know that those signatures produced by this method are not fakes or copies in the sense that you mean. A carbon copy signature is one imprinted on a surface where a paper has been signed with carbon paper underneath it, producing another exact copy below of the signature above. It was commonly used in the days before photocopying.
Nobody has suggested that Jeremy is a typewriting expert, least of all himself. If you read what has been written (something you appear to have a problem with and is quite surprising for a so-called self-proclaimed expert) you will see that everyone clearly refers to Herr Haas as the expert.
You have an agenda here which is plainly obvious to anyone with any level of intelligence. Had you approached this in a not so obvious manner, you may well have been able to achieve some momentum towards your goal, but your immature attacks on anyone doubting your word or the word of any of your closeted friends clearly shows you up for what you are. I have no need to be a follower or fan of anyone, but I do appreciate people who are honest and determined to present an argument with genuine back up evidence, something you would do well to observe.
Max.

[Jeremy]

yawn

Weweslburg, you misunderstood Max's post.... he does not make any such claims about the Rommel sigs... why don't you just answer his comment about the nature of the sigs... I'll ignore the other immature comments.

Also, I see nowhere in any post that I, or anyone else, mention I am a typewriting expert. I used Haas who is a typewriting expert to check the docs (he would laugh, as I did, at what you attempted to post as identical typefaces - any one can see the differences). I merely pointed out to you what he has found and pointed these features out - try reading the threads properly as a first step.

Anyway, thank you for stepping back in this matter.... totally appropriate.

[max history]

To return to the original subject of this thread........
Unlike Wewelsburg, I did not take 3 seconds to assess the authenticity of this particular piece. I took a while to examine it properly and consult with other autograph enthusiasts. In my opinion the signed card is authentic and handsigned by Hermann Göring. It compares favourably with known examples of his signature and handwriting from the same or similar period, so you can easily discount the observations of our new self-proclaimed expert:

Jeremy:

1. the letters "r" - "m" - "a" as well as the two "n"

2. the word Göring is totally wrong ! The letter "ö" even isn´t a "ö"

3. Göring NEVER wrote such an "r" - NEVER !

4. letter "n" is too round and than the following "g". I have a lot of Göring signatures but no single one has such an "g"

5. the word "Reichsmarschal" is completely wrong and not Göring´s handwriting

6. have you ever seen HOW Göring wrote numbers ? I bet you didn´t, because otherwise you would immediately know that these numbers were not written by Hermann Göring !

altogether: The signature, the word Reichsmarschall and the numbers were not written by Hermann Göring - fact !

These comments are simply wrong and are misleading.
I privately sent a copy of the Göring card in question to two real experts for their opinions. Both have now replied that the example is 100% genuine without reservation.
Here are two examples of Göring's signature and handwriting which dispute the comments above. My own examples of Göring are not easily accessible, so I have reproduced these examples from the book of real expert Charles Hamilton. He provides numerous examples of the variations in Göring's handwriting and signatures on pp102-108. The first is as a POW and the second is as dated.
Max.

[max history]

For ease of comparison.......