Erich Hartmann signed material

[CWP]

I have enjoyed this discussion very much and have learned a lot from it, certainly extremely educational and eye-opening. I find the repeated lawsuit threats to be over the top, ungentlemanly, and simply deplorable.

[randy@treadways]

I have enjoyed this discussion very much and have learned a lot from it, certainly extremely educational and eye-opening. I find the repeated lawsuit threats to be over the top, ungentlemanly, and simply deplorable.

Yes, being a Wehrmacht history board, one would think that any threats would be in the form of a challenge to a dual- Panzer shelling from 1,500 meters, or Stuka dive bombing from 10,000 meter altitude, not a lawsuit.

[Rommel1933]

Yes, being a Wehrmacht history board, one would think that any threats would be in the form of a challenge to a dual- Panzer shelling from 1,500 meters, or Stuka dive bombing from 10,000 meter altitude, not a lawsuit.

Ohh my gosh that is funny... how about, "My panzerfaust is bigger than yours!"

[randy@treadways]

This line of discussion led me to think of Heydrich and his fencing prowess.
A few months ago I was reading about how the Nazis allowed 'honor duels' back into acceptability within Wehrmacht ranks... and the Blomberg - Fritsch Affair, which ended up with Fritsch trying to challenge Himmler to a pistol duel.

This article has some good information about the culture of German dueling.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dueling_scars

Apparently Theodor Duesterberg (Wehrmacht "Steel Helmet") challenged Agricultural Minister Darre to a duel, but it never happened. Darre appealed to an "Honor Board" instead, where Duesterberg lost his case.

By the time of the Fritsch challenge to Himmler, Hitler had already put out an edict forbidding any of his cabinet ministers and military direct-reports from participating in duels.

[Ralljg52]

Randy
I would except a duel , No Problem ! but it's a bit difficult trying to fight some one who hasn't got the balls to answer me or admit where I can get hold of him.
Come on Jeremy put up or shut up.
Chris ! is that Gentlemen enough for you , let's have a fight to the death , come on Jeremy I will even fly out to New Zealand if you wish.

Colin Frost

[LWSigs]

Bachnick document

@ Jeremy: I am really sorry that I wasted your valid time (with some delay) and caused your post with your comments so obvious to many of the members here. But at least now even I have learned that I was and still am a naive collector carrying my money to the nicest guys calling themselves autograph dealers albeit the offered stuff is good or not as long as they tell me so. This is really tough to realize because I started my collection in the mid 70ies and I have always thought that I have not only collected sigs and photos of the flying aces of WWI and II but I have collected some experience in this field too. And during this long time I got in touch with some of these guys, comrades, subordinates, family, collectors – even from the former HJ and – I have to admit – some dealers even on this early stage. And all of them (except a very few dealers) I counted as trustworthy. But even then I always tried to purchase very carefully. Now I have to accept that the one and only expert is located on the other side of the globe, obviously so familiar with the german language, bureaucracy, history that he is THE authority not only for the quite narrow field of Luftwaffe sigs but for (german?) signatures in general. There must be a lot of good stuff and archives over there or do you in truth ever lived here in good old Germany, doing your studies in history, in bios, writing techniques, typewriting all in german ;-)? If this is not the case may be I should declare myself as the ultimate expert in ANZAC for example vice versa?

Although your general comments are so obvious to many I would - in all modesty – like to answer very briefly to them:

1. In fact the historical accuracy of a document doensn’t necessarily means that it is authentic. But at least I expect of an authentic document that it is historical accurate.

By the way: Why don’t you give us the link to the blanko form which was used for the document in question instead of the “Verleihungsurkunde fuer Frontflugspange”? As I have mentioned in my last post you will find the stock number etc. in the bottom left corner of the front page.

2. Why don’t you ask Mr. Haas to analyse the document in question yourself? It is your idea so the honor belongs to you. So put your money where YOUR mouth is. It should be no problem even from the kiwi-side of the earth ;-).

3. I couldn’t agree more about the Klaps document. But once again: I expect to find a genuine signature (and stamp) only on a authentic document not on a forged one. That wouldn’t really make sense to me...

4. Now I have learned something new: Forgery as an art form. That really sounds idealistic and very creative. I always thought that the first intention of this bloody “fake factory” is to cheat naive collectors like me and to make money out of it. Do these guys put their art on display somewhere? I would be much interested...

Just stupid copying is another thing. And if somebody has bought the copy offered on Mil321 I would join you in calling the purchaser as completely naive. But when this is your point - where is the link to the original Bachnick document then?

5.(i) I agree with you that the price is rather irrelevant. But the higher the price for an item is the more the buyer should consider his purchase very carefully. And by the way - the community is looking at and commenting on it (like you and me and others here) as well.

5. (ii) I added the (unquestioned) Barkhorn sig because of the double- or multisigned material (together with Hartmann) what was a matter of extensive discussion on this forum too.

And with regard to the military duties of the guys in question: No, it has nothing to do with the authenticity with this particular document. Nevertheless their duties were a matter of fact and they definitely had to do all these things. And by the way - where are all these genuine documents when nearly everything else is from the very (hard-working) “fake factory”?

6. See above made remarks. And sorry for my typo. Of course I meant Obermaier whose last editions of his “Ritterkreuztraeger” graces my book shelf since the year of their announcement.

Regards

LWSigs

[randy@treadways]

the culture of German dueling.
.

I found that there is already a thread started on this topic.
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...highlight=duel
I was already familiar with Skorzeny, Seldte, and Kurt Schäfer.
It's hard to believe that some women found these scars sexy.

Kids stick them on their face now as wash-off fake tattoos at Halloween time.

[CWP]

Randy
I would except a duel , No Problem ! but it's a bit difficult trying to fight some one who hasn't got the balls to answer me or admit where I can get hold of him.
Come on Jeremy put up or shut up.
Chris ! is that Gentlemen enough for you , let's have a fight to the death , come on Jeremy I will even fly out to New Zealand if you wish.

Colin Frost

What I meant is that we here are (or should be) an association of collectors and not opponents to be bested by our respective teams of lawyers. The truth in this matter should be easy enough to discern and threats of lawsuits come across as extremely cheesy, to say the least.

[DEANtw]

I'm looking for Erich Hartmann's signed

how about this one ?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Erich-Hartma...item58a61d5149

[TH0791]

the price is too high

I sold a similar piece before several months for +$100

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6035894&postcount=2

[QUOTE=DEANtw]

I'm looking for Erich Hartmann's signed

how about this one ?

[DEANtw]

the price is too high

I sold a similar piece before several months for +$100

I bought it from ebay

Thanks

[Jeremy]

Update

Just updating this thread with signatures from Hartmann's late war soldbuch compared to the fake factory beneath each one.

Maybe even Colin Frost, our 'expert' dealer can notice the difference (though I doubt it somehow)...

[NBolinger]

Robert Taylor

This is one of the Robert Taylor's i own Ace of Aces signed by Hartmann .