Erich Hartmann signed material

[Robert Shoaf]

Thanks for the input. I would probably be comfortable with a Hartmann signature on a print from someone like Robert Taylor, but, I really don't want a large framed print; I want a signed photo.
I am surprised as to how much Hartmann's signature goes for; I am well aware of his exploits, but he seems to have signed a LOT of items post-war.
I have about 25 Jagdwaffe Knights Cross recipient's signed photos; sure hope they are all authentic!

Bob Shoaf

[Rommel1933]

Hi Jeremy, Actually it seems we agree fully.. We both agreed that unless you have a photo of them signing you can't be 100% sure... ohh wait there is photoshop! ok so we need a video.. hahah.. JK..

I agree that a hw analyst is out of reach of most of us collectors and the cost/benefit is not there. I was merely pointing out that unless you do things like that you can't be 100% sure of what you got.

You are right on about trusting dealers w/ a dodgy record. It is very unlikely I ever would have bought any of my Hartmann stuff if I didn't know the guy and his reputation very well..

In my opinion generally buying signatures is what makes me the most nervous. When I was a kid I knew another kid up the street who used to sign "Don Mattingly" on our little league baseballs... it was impossible to tell the difference in my opinion. He even went to baseball card shows and sold them to experienced collectors.. Again, this was a 12 year old kid so I am skeptical perhaps to a fault on signature..

Thank you, Scott

I don't fully agree with Scott's view on how to decide whether to buy or not... your average collector is very unlikely to resort to a handwriting analyst because of the cost-benefit ratio - i.e. the analysis probably costs much more than the signed piece you want. Trusting in a dealer or in an accompanying CoA is certainly a flawed option - some dealers have no idea about the authenticity or otherwise of what they sell. Not trusting some dealers with a dodgy record is a better option...

IMO, doing some proper research for yourself is clearly the most informed way to prepare to buy something you want in your collection. Their are plenty of post-war Hartmann sigs on reliable pieces such as those on art prints and things like the book plate shown earlier in the thread. It is a matter of finding as many examples and familiarising yourself with and comparing the features of the signature and the material it is signed on. You can rarely be 100% sure unless you have a photo of the piece actually being signed by the person.

[Rommel1933]

Bob, I am kind of curious at to what prices you are seeing for Hartmann's signature?

Thank you,
Scott

Thanks for the input. I would probably be comfortable with a Hartmann signature on a print from someone like Robert Taylor, but, I really don't want a large framed print; I want a signed photo.
I am surprised as to how much Hartmann's signature goes for; I am well aware of his exploits, but he seems to have signed a LOT of items post-war.
I have about 25 Jagdwaffe Knights Cross recipient's signed photos; sure hope they are all authentic!

Bob Shoaf

[jerrymyr]

Greetings all!!
I am normally a bystander here, having never posted.
I normally vakue it highly for educational purposes.
I would like to post now with some feelings about what
has been going on here under a few threads.

Simon's message to all in a recent posting by him.....

It's been my intention to try and leave this thread as free of censorhip as possible in order to give all the opportunity to make up their own minds, both with the evidence presented and the responses from both sides. Some of the posts, again, from both sides have been getting personal or threatening and it's gone far enough

I'm now giving notice that further discussion on the subject must stick to the items being discussed.

no more threats, attempts to bully members into revealing their personal details, speculation on anyone's integrity or accusations.


Any further such behaviour will result in an infraction and the exclusion of that member from any further posting in this thread.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __

I would like to bring to your attention a posting by Jeremy in the Photo-Document section under the heading of "Erich Hartmann signed material"....
Post #60. Dated Oct 6,2011.
The piece referenced to here, along with a photo, is my Hartmann/Barkhorn signed piece that was on ebay.
The comment in his post was as follows.........



Here's another familiar dud 'wartime' Hartmann clipping on ebay...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Erich-Hartma...item2eb83771cd

Look at the price - US$925

I wonder where this clipping came from originally?? Plenty of room for a nice pencil drawing on top...

I wouldn't want the 'wartime' Kittel, Nowotny, von Kluge etc. this dealer is selling either... IMO from the factory...
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _

I am well aware of what has been going on here in regards to sigs/photos from Stefan Korlin in Germany.
I have been a bystander up to this point, having never posted anything myself.

Firstly, i would like to say that the Hartmann/Barkhorn piece did not come from Stefan.
Also...the other pieces that he has referred to did NOT come from Stefan.
I have been buying from a few different sources in Germany for the past 14 years or so.

I am a legitimate, tax-paying dealer, and am very careful as to what i purchase and from WHOM i purchase.
Not that any of us are infallable, but i try to do a good job and deal honestly.

IF....Jeremy's posting was just in reference to the Hartmann piece, i would not have minded it too much.
However, he seems intent upon destroying my business also with inferred references to my other items also
being "no good", and probably all being from "The Factory".
Although not stated directly, to avoid 100% legal responsibility, it is quite well understood by all who have
been on WA, following the threads on Marseille, Hartmann, Schnaufer, etc, that "The Factory" certainly
refers to Stefan Korlin.
ALthough i have bought Postwar signed items from Stefan before. THESE referenced items on ebay did
NOT come from Stefan.(Nowotny Kittel vonKluge). These have been in my collection for a while, and it was only
recently that i have decided to part with a few items. Therefore...all being listed on eBay at the same time.
However...now...anyone who WAS interested in these pieces will now stay away due to the "humble opinion" of Jeremy,
who...while talking about Hartmann, succeeded, i'm sure, in destroying
my sale of the other items. These other items that he rerred to have NOTHING to do with the subject on hand, and
should have never been even mentioned in this thread.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Simon, i am not sure if you are reading all of these threads personally, but...no matter how well intentioned Jeremy is,
he is destroying the business of other legitimate dealers "just because", some items look like they could have come
from "The Factory" AKA Stefan Korlin.
Even if he is well intentioned, he is planting the seed in people's minds that they are "probably" phoney items, and
therefore, they will not sell, causing a financial loss to myself.
IN ONE FELL SWOOP, his "Just my opinion" is destroying the sales of many people. I am losing my reputation as an honest dealer, and have just lost a couple of sales due to the fact that i, myself, and
my offerings are "suspect".

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Additionally under photos/paper items, see the Schnaufer heading.
Here again, Jeremy...in his Post #28 has destroyed the reputation and livelihood of someone (myself) with his "humble opinion".
Here is his wording copied from the thread......

oh oh

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh dear, here's another two dud clippings off the production line... one off ebay...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Heinz-Schnau...item2314ae32c4

I enjoyed this description from the dealer:

"...Nice bold original sig that is extremely scarce, in great demand, and...missing from most collections!"

Hmmm yeah original forgery, not extremely scarce it seems if you want a dud clipping, and I am glad this crap is missing from my collection.

These "Humble Opinions" should really stop.
Facts & comparisons can be made but damaging inferences and disguised vitriol have no place here.
Respectfully
Jerry
Jerry's Collectibles

[Eric JB]

For many years signatures from the factory of fakes did find their way into many collections all over the entire world.


Collectors all over the world do have those factory of fakes signatures in their collection.


Not only the factory of fakes is selling those signatures, other dealers are selling them too.


Collectors who ended collecting brought those factory of fakes signatures on the market again.


And there are even sellers around, who sell factory of fakes signatures under their own name, not mentioning that their signatures are coming from the factory of fakes.


Not that long ago a friend was offered a large collection of signed photos, clippings and signed pieces of paper........among them several clearly bearing the factory of fakes brand mark.


So to say a mixture of good and bad signatures in that large collection.


yours friendly


Eric-Jan

[VtwinVince]

Come on, if you can't take the heat, you know what to do.

[jerrymyr]

Hello all.
Thank you for the replies.
As i mentioned, i usually read the posts for "continuuing education" if you will.
I thank you, in any case, for the replies.
It certainly IS a learning process, and i will continue to be (a bit more) diligent in
regards to these items.
Respectfully
Jerry

[Jeremy]

Come on

Hi Jerry,

Thanks for posting. I doubt that by me commenting on these two clippings or the Nowotny etc I am destroying your business. I am not intent in any way on destroying your business - let me make that very clear to you... a complete overreaction... You must have been concerned about the clippings, in any case, as I see you have removed them from sale on ebay. Kudos to you for doing that, and it reflects positively on you as a dealer. Other dealers just blithely continue to sell dodgy stuff. Collectable CoAs in presentation boxes as some form of guarantee of such material by another dealer are laughable... head in the sand mentality.

As EJ says, it doesn't matter where you got the material from, they originally come from one source into the market and continue to do so in print editions or with pencil drawings. There is no doubt among the knowledgeable collecting community that there is a noticeable style of signatures on clippings, Hoffmanns or private photos that reflects they emanate from the fake factory. The simplicity of the signature, the ink colour, the quantity available... Slowly it becomes clear to each individual about what to avoid, and dealers will begin to feel the pinch if they continue to sell this stuff without more concern for its authenticity. More and more of it will be posted over time on the WAF as you will see.

I think dealers need to take full responsibility for offering any dodgy material for sale, particularly in light of the information presented in these threads on WAF. Some dealers have little idea about the authenticity of what they sell. It's a business for profit. Such dealers make little effort to consider to any reasonable degree the quality or authenticity of their product, and refuse to take back material or offer a reasonable policy of refunds. This has been the story for nigh on 20 years. Now people are becoming sick of the flood of fake 'wartime' stuff. That we on this forum comment on particular material may help collectors - particularly new ones - avoid mistakes and wasting their money. I have always said that each individual is free to make up their own mind, but at least they can do so based on a range of opinions rather than a dealer's word or dubious opinion. Honest dealers will survive.

If you want informed opinions about material you are selling then you could post it here for discussion. I wouldn't want the Kittel you are selling in my collection - all the hallmarks of the fake factory clippings. You could start a thread on Kittel if you want input. Same for the Marseille stuff you have been selling... You could put your Nowotny up for discussion here, too, and see what people think. IMO it has all the hallmarks of the fake factory - it is a sig on a Hoffmann which is identical to that on the dodgy clippings of which I have a number of examples. Other collectors will have some authentic Nowotny ones for comparison I am sure. And so on.

It would be great if dealers like you engaged in the discussion here. Craig Gottlieb did so to kick off the Marseille thread and deserves a pat on the back for doing so. Dealers need to bloody-well take responsibility (beyond farcical CoAs and "my 25 years in the business") for what they sell. So far, we just have people with a vested interest trying to beat down/intimidate the discussion. If it means dealers possibly ditching some of the dodgy stuff that they have mistakenly bought then they should take the monetary loss on the chin, just like collectors, including me, when they realise they have bought crap in the past from a dealer before they were any wiser or had the opportunity to look at the content of threads like those available on the WAF.

[Simon O.]

That's very well put Jeremy. As i've said before. This is a forum for both sides to put forward their views, experiences and opinions. That these items are discussed and questioned is only right and proper and i urge any collector or dealer who disagrees with the opinions put forward by Jeremy and others to take the opportunity to counter the points made.

[Jeremy]

nice

Here is a very nice example of Hartmann in postwar uniform with dedication from 1969... notice the style of the 'h' and 'a' in his signature...

[monty]

WW2 Period Hartmann Signature

Here is another WW2 period clipping signature.

[TH0791]

Here is a very nice example of Hartmann in postwar uniform with dedication from 1969... notice the style of the 'h' and 'a' in his signature...

I am the owner of this piece

[Jeremy]

so obvious, but not to some

Returning to the signature discussion... in summary, in this thread we have shown many good examples of Hartmann's signature from wartime to his death. It is possible to clearly see the change across time from the examples in different decades. The dodgy style Hartmann, 'wartime' and 'postwar', however, is notably different and does not vary, as presented clearly here (see post #40) and on other items for sale at LegendsAviationGallery as individual clippings and also matted with Tribute Editions (10 Hartmann clippings for Slowing the Red Tide by Trudgian).

Colin, can you explain to WAF members, with examples, why you consider this dodgy style that you sell and publish with prints is authentic, yet others on this forum dispute this through showing other material?

[Ralljg52]

Jeremy

You say you have shown many good examples of HARTMANNS signature.
Who says they are good examples " you " are you an expert , no of course your not , where is your proof and from whom does it come from. I keep asking you who is your expert , I would be more than willing to listen to what he has to say ? I could learn something.
You again accuse me of selling dodgy signatures , again with no proof ? other than your humble opinion which we are starting to see is not worth alot.
Does anybody else out there have any dodgy signatures for sale or is it just dear old me. Have you had a close look at Hero Autographs considering he is supplied by Stefan Korlin of The supposed Fake Factory.
You ask me to explain to WAF members with examples , why I consider the supposed dodgy style that I sell to be authentic , whilst others on this site dispute this , my signatures are Authenticated and you no by who , your partner knows him well . Jeremy apart from you who disputes these signatures , this is just you putting words in other peoples mouths.
I have given plenty of examples you have downloaded most of my stock and put it on this site already, you have done the job for me.
Its all becoming a bit tedious.

Colin Frost
Legends Aviation Gallery

[LWSigs]

Hartmann Sigs

Hi,

as a collector of Luftwaffe war signed material for decades (with breaks and in view of rising prices far from being fanatic but with at least a little extent of experience I would say) and as a new member here I have studied many of the recent posts regarding Marseille, Hartmann, Rudel, Schnaufer etc with great interest. Especially in my early collector years I got a lot of my stuff from various sources beyond question like family, comrades, adjutants and - yes - early HJ-collections (and be assured that there were quite a few) and other collections set up long before the internet and Ebay and so on were introduced. Even fleamarkets and some trustworthy dealers were a good source in these "good old" days. Most probably the Internet and the increase in transparency of prices and market may have attracted fortune hunters to start bull****ting around. I don't blame anybody personally (so far) and I even don't know some of the names here in question. But when I eventually bought from a dealer or auction I have never asked for a CoA because I have always made up my own mind before. From my point of view this should be essential for a serious collector. But this is just my irrelevant opinion.

Nevertheless I would be very pleased to receive comments / opinions on this particular Hartmann signature on a document presented and offered by leisure galleries

www.leisuregalleries.com/hartdoc.html

As it was most likely sold years ago (for astonishing USD 1.595) perhaps it was discussed earlier in this forum and I have missed the posts in question. If so I would be happy to receive a hint accordingly.

Many thanks in advance.