Erich Hartmann signed material

[Jeremy]

Nice one

Another classic authentic Hartmann recently surfaced among a large collection...

[LWSigs]

Hi,

here is the link to the a.m. Hartmann signed document:

http://www.leisuregalleries.com/hartdoc.jpg

By the way it was sold not for USD 1.595 but for USD 1.995!!!!

Comments / judgements on this document / signature are very much appreciated.

Many thanks

[LWSigs]

Sorry, here is the relevant page. The other one was just the front page of the document in question:

http://www.leisuregalleries.com/hartdoc2.jpg

[Rommel1933]

Good stuff Jeremy and LW!!

Always enjoy seeing a new post on this thread!

Thank you,
Scott

[Jeremy]

Opinion?

LWsigs, as you mention you have been a collector for decades, and based on the content of this thread (which I assume you have read in full), why don't you tell us what you think about the authenticity of the document and the signature in question?

Rommel1933, sorry, not sure I understand what you mean by "Good stuff" about LWsigs posts with links to the document...

[Rommel1933]

@Jeremy. I enjoyed his post and links. I did not mean for it sound that I validated anything. I just enjoy any new post at this thread.
Thank you
Scott

[Rommel1933]

@Jeremy. I enjoyed his post and links. I did not mean for it sound that I validated anything. I just enjoy any new post at this thread.
Thank you
Scott

[LWSigs]

Hartmann

Hi,

sorry for the late response but my spare time is quite limited.

Before I come back to the document in question (Beurteilung Herbert Bachnik) offered and sold by Leasure Galleries and present my own opinion (your remark is fair enough Jeremy) I'd like to make two comments.

Firstly my understanding is that this forum serves as a discussion platform not as a court room. Secondly I have learned after doing some studies that a certain "style" of Hartmann sigs seems to be under a cloud here. Or to be more precise: The one or the other participant has the strong opinion that "this certain style" of Hartmann sigs is faked. If I am right so far the signature on this particular document belongs to this category.

I have not seen that this document was subject matter of a discussion to date so I would like to share my consideration of and thoughts about its authenticity.

Given that this document is one sheet of paper and not a product of Photoshop or something similar (but in this case it would never have been sold for almost 2.000 bucks, right?) there are a couple of good reasons why this document could be genuine and therefore the signature of Hartmann and the handwritten evaluation "sehr gut" accordingly. These reasons are as follows:

1) The printed form

This form really fits into good old german (military) bureaucracy. It bears the typical stock number and the name of the printing plant in the bottom left corner. I have seen a lot of similar documents in my collectors (and my business) life and from the first view I can't detect any suspicious details. It looks completely low-key to me. And we have to keep in mind that aces like Hartmann were not only exposed to (thousands of) autograph seekers. They were military leaders in the first line like Squadron Leaders, Group Commanders, Geschwaderkommodore etc. and they were integral part of a military command structure and bureaucracy. They had staff though but they had nevertheless to do all the day to day business writing reports, compose evaluations, signing documents of all kinds. Beside their flying activities they had to achieve their military leadership duties as well. The latter was at least as much as important for a military career as the number of successes in the air (so called "Fuehrungseigenschaften" or Leadership capability). There are still a few of these guys alive and they will certainly confirm that.

Furthermore I can hardly believe that somebody is going to fake such a form or that a forger has found a blank copy to complete it in such detail and with this accuracy. Even for almost 2.000 bucks the complexity and efforts appears much too high - for me at least and in comparison to paper clippings and - may be - 158 combat reports (please take it not as a statement from my side to this different issue)

2) The content

Given that a forger have a blank form at hand why should he choose a relatively unknown KC Holder as object of this evaluation? Why not a hot shot then who sells even better than Bachnik? Apart of Obermueller I did a bit of research about Bachnik years ago when I eventually received a nice portrait of Herbert Bachnick for my own collection. Without a very intimate knowledge of this guy a forger would not have been able to complete this form with this very special and individual content. And in addition all the details regarding rank, number of missions, successes, personal performance, characteristics correspond completely to the date in question (Dec. 1943).

3) The mark

The document shows clearly as sign of legal authorisation / certification of the signature the mark "Dienststelle Feldpostnummer L 36494". It is not the biggest issue to discover in the so called "Stempeldatenbank" that this is the mark ("Kreisstempel") which was issued for and used by 9. Staffel Jagdgeschwader 52 between Febr. 28, 1941 and May 21, 1945 which matches perfectly with the date of our document.

Conclusion:

Before that background and unless proven otherwise I see no reason why this document and the signature (and the remark "sehr gut") it bears should not be genuine. I would rather take it as a reference piece for warsigned Hartmann signatures and compare it with other signatures vice versa.

I would like to take the opportunity to refer to two further documents / signatures regarding Hartmann and Barkhorn from the same source which are - from my point of view - beyond doubt as well and could serve as reference too.




I am looking forward to releasing further contributions to this discussion.

Regards

LWSigs

P.S. To receive 100 % certainty I should have asked "Bubi" Hartmann personally when I eventually met him as a young man getting some dedications on photographs and the book "Holt Hartmann vom Himmel". Although I visit his - rather unspectacular - grave on the cemetery of Weil im Schoenbuch from time to time it is now regrettably too late and we have to do some homework of the kind I tried to do instead.

[Ralljg52]

Hi all

Well Jeremy we are all waiting for your responce !
As for the Marseille combat reports I will soon be posting evidence to prove that these are genuine and that Herr Hass is 100% wrong about his decision that these are RO 1 post war typed. Its easy really just go to a German archive site and pull off documents that have the same RO 1 type set as the Marseille reports. Then make up your own minds ! who do you then beleive Herr Hass or the German Archives ! The Marseille signature on several of the combat reports are currently undergoing fresh testing at a Lab in Germany. We are seeking different Marseille signatures on other documents for evaluation purposes. When we have the results we will share them with you . Jeremy as you have not responded to my ( Professional not threatening ) email about this and not given me your Lawyers name we have had to hire a private investigator to find you in New Zealand , if that is really where your from. I will post my email I sent to you on this forum site if people wish to see it ! they can then make their own minds up if they think it is threatening . As I said all along there is nothing wrong with freindly discussion but LIBEL is another thing.

Colin Frost
Legends Aviation Gallery

[CPT_Edge]

Jeremy as you have not responded to my ( Professional not threatening ) email about this and not given me your Lawyers name we have had to hire a private investigator to find you in New Zealand , if that is really where your from. I will post my email I sent to you on this forum site if people wish to see it ! they can then make their own minds up if they think it is threatening . As I said all along there is nothing wrong with freindly discussion but LIBEL is another thing.

Colin Frost
Legends Aviation Gallery

"Professional," indeed.

[Jeremy]

Oh well, here we go again

Some general comments in response to LWsigs post (apologies if I am stating the obvious to many of you)...

1. The view that because a document has historically accurate content it is necessarily a marker of authenticity is obviously flawed. A forger can produce a document to a high standard with a bit of research and effort or just copy something. Here's just one example of a blanko they might use to start with:

http://www.beck-militaria.de/Urkunde...er::13505.html

2. Obviously, once we show the typewriting used is forged on a document, the accompanying sig is almost certainly fake (aka the two Marseille combat reports analysed by Haas - keep wishing he's wrong, Frost). BUT, of course, if an analysis shows the typewriting is ok, this does not prove the sig is authentic. I'm sure Haas would be happy to do an analysis of the Bachnick document scan - put your money where your mouth is LWsigs.

3. The scan posted of the Hartmann signed doc about Klaps may show a good doc BUT this does not in turn make the isolated signature added at the bottom, which appears to serve no function on the document, authentic. Just as we can see authentic wartime photos and postcards (feldposted or otherwise) with fake sigs added, it would be foolhardy to accept a sig as authentic because what it is written on is thought/shown to be authentic.

4. It is mistaken to suggest that forgers do not go to so much trouble regarding the detail and accuracy of faking documents and stamps. Forgery of wartime documents/sigs is an art form, a skill undertaken professionally by some, though for sure material can be crap or a forger's style/features evident (aka fake factory stuff). Look at the scans of a genuine document and the forged copy which was for sale on militaria321 (bottom) attached - standard practice for document forgery. No intimate knowledge required here. More complex documents are known to have been cleverly forged.
Look at this thread, too:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...rouping+review

5. The price a doc sells for is rather irrelevant (and merely reflects what the dealer asked for and someone decided to pay in this case), and whether it is a "low key" document is irrelevant, which I would dispute, anyway, for a KIA KC with 80 vics as in Bachnick's case, and that 'sehr gut' is written on the document means little regarding evidence of document authenticity either.

5. The Barkhorn material shown from the same dealer has nothing to do with the authenticity or otherwise of the two Hartmann docs, nor do stories of what duties airman performed during the war.

6. Personally, I think blithely assuming material is authentic until proven otherwise is a strange and potentially costly approach to collecting (aka Marseille). It ranks alongside simply accepting the word of a dealer because he is a good guy. Of course he is being a nice guy, he is getting your money...

LWsigs, I would be interested to see a thread posted by you on all your Bachnick research... BTW, you mean Obermaier don't you?

No wonder fakes continue to be bought and sold when some collectors are so naive...

As for Frost's rant yet again, yawn...

[Ralljg52]

Jeremy

I don't think you will be so cocky when I eventually find you.
If you are so confident that I am a cheat and a liar , why don't you answer my email and talk to my Lawyer. It's erelevent now whether the Marseille report is genuine or fake you can not escape from the Libelous comments that you have directed at me , you have called me a blatant liar and accused me of selling fake signatures , you have even had the cheek to down load images from my website without my permission and posted them on this forum saying they are fake.
Now every body is getting sick and tired of this rediculous argument between us , I don't knowingly sell fakes and never have done and will never do in the future , and to back that up if I ever had or did by accicdent I have always offered a 100% money back quarantee. I gave you ample time and opportunity to apoligise to me months ago before this got out of hand but you decided not to , you just carried on trying to discredit me that is why I have had no other option but to sue you for Libel. As I have said many times before there is nothing wrong with decent discussion and backing it up with proof. Your evidence from Herr Hass is very interesting and you have clearly worked very hard on this subject , but as I have said Herr Hass is not the only expert in this field and it won't be the last time experts will argue and discredit each other over these things. I have also said before you can not go round calling people cheats and liars , your evidence about the Marseille report will have to stand up in court and even then it is no excuse for your libelous remarks about any other stock of mine that I sell.
If I have ever unfortunately sold a fake signature by accident because it has fooled me and my team or my expert it doesn't make me a cheat or a crook , as you have quoted before any decent dealer who wouldn't give a full refund no questions
asked ( like I do ) isn't worth a pinch of salt.
So please contact me or my Legal team so we can bring this subject to an end.
Ps this is not threatening I am just trying to get some dialog going between us !


Colin Frost
Legends Aviation Gallery

[randy@treadways]

Maybe it would be a good time for the moderators to bring this particular thread to a conclusion, and the protagonists can take their disagreement off-line?

At this point we're beyond finding further information about Erich Hartmann, at least in this thread.

[Jeremy]

Disagree

I agree that Frost continues to add absolutely nothing of value regarding Erich Hartmann signatures on this thread (and it is not really the place for a dealer to give himself a character reference, either). However, I don't see that as a reason to close the thread given that everyone else is trying to focus on sharing and discussing of material. I'm sure further relevant material of interest will appear...

[jacquesf]

Any thoughts on this Hartmann signature in the limited edition Schiffer publication? To me it looks a lot like the signature on the first post in this thread.Btw very interesting discussion for someone with no idea about signatures. Jacques