Erich Hartmann signed material

[Lancaster]

I'll post the link here as well, have a look at this Jeremy, perhaps it may answer some of your concerns

http://www.ehangar.com/modules.php?n...r=asc&start=15

[Jeremy]

Link

Thanks for posting the link. Educated collectors here on WF will, I am sure, enjoy reading it. You mention strong evidence in the 'Help with sigs' thread. I'll say one thing only at the moment. The content of his reply does not constitute strong evidence for anything (something you request me to do, but strangely it seems not him when you buy from him), and the comment (in response to another members request for information about a wartime Hartmann sig ) about loops in the Hartmann 'h' from someone with 25 years experience in the field is not informative IMO.

Anyway, I will get round to addressing Stefan's comments later - Ineed to catch up on what I am paid to do. As I say in the long reply to Lancaster in the 'Help with sigs' thread, this and other threads are not about Stefan, or any gallery, or artist. That doesn't interest me or any of the other collectors here. I'll leave that to ehangar.

[Jeremy]

More

As I said before, unfortunately Stefan has posted about this thread and made remarks, so I have no choice but to address them. It is not a personal attack on him, just a response to what he has said.

I was waiting to try and get some photos from Stefan as he is a good source but no luck. Stefan explained on ehangar:

I remember when I met Hartmann (I met him very often), I asked him to sign for me only on postwar postcards (it does means reproduction photos of an original wartime portrait on PE-paper) the wartime style of signature. I know that he didn´t do this very often (it was probably end of 80´s or just some years before he died - cannot really remember when it was).

And:

Even this - I call it "wartime style of his postwar signature" postwar signature does looks a little bit different to his - so called "real wartime signature". It does mean in fact: a postwar signature a postwar signature - signed as a wartime style by Hartmann in late 80´s up to prior his death looks a little bit different to the wartime style from the proper wartime period (means up to 1945). You see a little bit a different in that signature.

Look at the post war sig in the paper photo here from an early issue of mit Schwerten and Brillianten. These pages were sometimes deliberately removed from this book and sold separately, sometimes as wartime sigs to unsuspecting collectors. Look at the Hoffmann photo in post #28 or the clippings in posts #5 and #6 and the postwar Hartmann style in the book (#6) or photos Stefan says he got from Hartmann (#4). They are very, very similar - and IMO they are all post-war signed by the same person, and it wasn't Hartmann. They are just too identical. We know what authentic wartime Hartmann sigs look like (e.g. post #3) and have great postwar examples (posts #21 and #22) which evolved from this wartime sig.

Once again, we have seen Hartmann's preferred postwar style of the late 50's, early 60's and mid 70's etc, yet the mit Schwerten and Brillianten (post #6) is signed in the unnatural one - there are several more copies of this type of book with post war sigs where I found this one. IMO there has been a deliberate attempt by someone signing these books and the photo also from mit Schwerten and Brillianten shown here to make the early post-war sigs look like the fake wartime sigs. No one asked Hartmann to sign in this unnatural way back then (whenever it was), so why would he? Everything else (except the dubious ones Stefan said he had signed in the 'wartime' style) is in his natural style.

Anyway, like the other threads, things just don't add up with the different Hartmann sig sets, but as usual you should form your own opinions based on the examples presented.

I have organised a German friend to go to the Bundesarchiv this month and look at material in the reading room and order copies of wartime materials for Hartmann, Rudel, and Marseille if they can be found. Plus there is another archive in the USA I am researching. This is the definitive way to end any argument and the derailing of these threads . I don't know how long that will take yet, or if they have the material we need, but I will post with the results on each of the relevant threads.

[Jeremy]

confirmation

And just to ram home the point, see the pdf comparing the fake wartime with the late 1980's sig (supposedly signed by Hartmann when he was about 65) on top of each other.

Almost identical? erh, yes. Signed 40-44 years apart? erh, I don't think so. Both signed by Hartmann? erh, I don't think so.

[Jeremy]

logbook sig

On this pdf we have a wartime sig for Hartmann from his logbook found on page 102 of the Ursula Hartmann and Jager book. Check out the book if you have it - The life story of the world's highest scoring ace'.

Note that the 'H' and the 'a' are not separate in the authentic signature but they are in the fake signatures (compare it to the 'wartime' fakes in post #28, #13, #5)

And there is no distinguishable 'a' in the good sig, but there is a clear 'a' in the stupid fakes.

[Jeremy]

more crap

more new stock (or possibly old stock colin frost is trying to sell based on adding an original drawing) of 'hartmann' sigs at legends aviation

http://www.legendsaviationgallery.co.uk/

u can see from these pics of designer clippings that the 'hartmann' signature is the one just like those I have suggested belong in the fake 'wartime' set in this thread...

see also similar BS stuff from the same source on this thread

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=509860

[Jeremy]

Another dud

Here's another fake style Hartmann, clear as day. And serious doubts, therefore, about the Barkhorn and Batz sigs.

All signed in the same ink, as usual, on a random photo Worth about 2quid on ebay.

[Jeremy]

ohoh

Here is a very interesting photo of an awards ceremony which took place in July 1944. Look at the Hartmann signature style. It is very like the one in the previous post - and compare the Hartmann sig with post #s 5, 13, and 28 which are also in the fake style. Easy to see the similarities between the fake style and also the difference when compared to any authentic Hartmann in this thread.

And, coincidentally, you will notice printed across the left of the photo the dealer's name... cough cough FineArts Autographs=Mr. Stefan Korlin. As with the fake Marseille signature on the combat report he sold which he stated as authentic (see http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=510951), I wonder if Stefan knows what an authentic Hartmann signature actually looks like?? Hmm, something is not right here.

Beyond the fake style Hartmann and IMO dubious Schnaufer, the reality that after the printing of this photo at some later date after the awards ceremony someone managed to personally get Hartmann and Schnaufer to both sign it in the latter part of the war (Schnaufer was in Belgium, Hartmann on the Eastern Front) is highly questionable

[Eric JB]

Jeremy,

One can find the same bad Schnaufer signature from time to time together with a bad Lent signature.

The Hartmann - Schnaufer combination is a more rare one.

And they are all coming from the same source in Germany.

Or is there someone who thinks that the autograph collector went from Germany to Belgium and to Russia, or visa versa ...... and that the same fountain pen went to those directions too.

Better to keep your money in your own pocket.

yours friendly

Eric-Jan

[Jeremy]

Duds

Just a collation of dud Hartmann's for those such as Brian, BlenheimMk1, and Simon who are struggling to identify the crap. Easy to spot this fake style.

For those who have a wartime 'Hartmann' with a Tribute Edition of "Slowing the Red Tide" (there were 10 clipped-signature "Hartmann and Barkhorn in this Tribute Edition" - supplied by Korlin), you might not be very pleased if your clippings matted with that print look like these Hartmanns (as well as the Barkhorn duds) when you see the good ones in the next post.

[Jeremy]

Good ones

Here are examples of true, authentic wartime Hartmann sigs.

The style is noticeably different to the fake style in the previous post (particularly in the first half of the signature), and very hard to find (not like the relatively plentiful fake style which are fairly easy to find). Two great private photos among them. Thanks to contributors.

[Der Texaner]

I posted my Hartmann ISP, inscribed to me, yesterday. Its towards the top of the page. I can get better quality pictures, close ups of inscription and signature and you are welcome to use them for reference. They were taken with my iphone, but I have a much better camera. No doubt it is authentic. Reads "To Joel Warren, with all my best wishes, Erich Hartmann 1988. He did it in blue ball point. Sharpie would have been nice, but the signature and inscription has held up well over the past 23 years. I still have the original envelope he sent it in too and would happy to photograph it. It was written in his hand. Not sure if it would be right to post the address. I know he is deceased, but still. I almost sold it once for $450.00 during a money crunch several years ago. Thank goodness I didn't. I will never sell it, but any idea what a post war, nice Hartmann ISP will bring nowadays with original envelope in his hand?

[VtwinVince]

Thanks, Jeremy, for posting all those crap signatures. Now we just have to find the forger, and hang him in the town square.A postwar example of Hartmann's signature, with envelope, would be in the 75.00 range, so I would have jumped on an offer of 450.00. You wouldn't get that kind of money for a wartime example.

[Der Texaner]

A postwar example of Hartmann's signature, with envelope, would be in the 75.00 range, so I would have jumped on an offer of 450.00. You wouldn't get that kind of money for a wartime example.

I listed it on eBay about 8 years ago with a reserve of $500.00. I'm pretty good at wording my auctions and putting the fear of forgeries in people's mind. Basically saying "this is one of the few times you can be 100% sure without doubt that you are getting an actual Erich Hartmann signature. How much is piece of mind worth?" lol And, it was even inscribed to me, which most collectors don't prefer. At this point, I wouldn't sell it unless I was in dire straights, and I mean DIRE. Not likely to happen, thank the good Lord, and I wouldn't let it go for less than $500.00 even now.

Since some autograph dealers have been mentioned, does anyone know what happened to Terry Patton? He kind of disappeared didn't he? Was his material good? Who is the most reliable dealer in WWII period and post war signatures? I used to have quite a colletion of Nuremberg autographs, purchased from a guard. Another thing I kick myself for selling.

[Rommel1933]

Here is my Hartmann Signature for the Blond Knight of Germany Bookplate....

It looks much like the Jeremey's post that started this thread..> I believe this is a late life signature..