KM Officer's Iron Cross Cert.

[Ian Jewison]

Well spotted predax, however that group of documents is not the one at issue at the moment! The one to Günther Heydemann is the one we have concerns with.......

(I see you are from Enschede, I have not been there for about 15 years but remember it well...also Henglo were we visited almost every weekend for 6 years!!!
I think it was "The Cat" in the centre of Enschede that we would visit often!!!)

Just to give another example of clerical errors, I used to have a group to a Transport DKiG pilot...whose name Hunsdiek, his EK II document was made out to Uffz. Hundsik which was incorrect, to the rear of the document was an update stating that there was an error and his name should read Hundsdiek...which was still incorrect!

/Ian

[Gordon Williamson]

Heydemann got the EK1 after leaving U-69 on 11 April where he was Oberleutnant and I.W.O.but before joining U-575 as its captain on 9 November. I would not expect to see his EK certificate signed by Dönitz or a flotilla commander.
At the time the award was made he would have been undergoing his U-Boat commander training.
U-575 was a brand new boat launched on 30 April and commissioned on 19 June 1941. Between these dates, Heydemann would have been allocated to the so-called "Baubelehrung" where the captain and crew familiarised themselves with every inch of the boat whilst it was being built, then he would have been attached to the Unterseebootsabnahmekommando where the boat underwent acceptance trials, then finally the Agrufront (Ausbildugsgruppe für Frontunterseeboote). Signature blocks for someone from any of those would have been an excellent sign. As it is the totally anonymous signature is all wrong. The name does not tie in with any I can find in any sort of U-Boat command structure.

Don't like this one at all.

[Eric JB]

Hi Gordon,

I do not understand your statement "I would not expect to see his EK certificate signed by Dönitz or a Flottilla commander"
I have seen more times documents signed by Dönitz or the Flottilla commander that were sent to the receiver when he had already left the submarine and was somewhere else for example on a course. I have seen documents with a pencil remark at the right corner above, with Kriegsmarinestammrollennummer and the unit the man was with at that moment - for example U.L.D, U.A.A. etc


yours Eric-Jan

[Ian Jewison]

Interesting point Eric-Jan,

I have seen documents with a pencil remark at the right corner above, with Kriegsmarinestammrollennummer and the unit the man was with at that moment - for example U.L.D, U.A.A. etc

I have one group which all the documents have his unit in pencil on them in the top right corner, even his promotion documetns...due to the combat situation at the time he was all over the place! I will start another thread on this later.....

/Ian

[Gordon Williamson]

Erik-Jan


Quite simple. Of course you will find documents as you describe. What I was disagreeing with was the statement

" Normally the document would be signed by Dönitz together with his rank and possible his function, or otherwise by Korvettenkapitän und Flottillechef Sohler"

This suggests that it would be expected that Dönitz or the Flotilla Commander would have signed the document. This is not necessarily so. I have had several examples of the these, as well as the U-Boat Badge and the U-Boat Clasp, which have been issued by the Training Command to which the individual was assigned
at the time of the award. So, whilst either scenario is possible, to me it is wrong to say "Normally" it would be signed by Dönitz or the Flotilla Commander. I'm not saying it isn't possible, but the lack of a Dönitz or Sohler signature is not in itself in any way problematic. Your post gave the impression that the lack of these specific signatures was suspicious when in itself, it isn't.

[predax]

Ian, that Cafe is still here in the city center!

I don't come there very often, it has somewhat been taken over by noisy students talking about hockey and tennis... I'm a student myself, but there seem to be different species of them.



Michiel.

[davidww]

Thanks

Hi Everybody,

Thanks very much indeed for your help.

It looks like I got hold of a duff one here. Thanks very much for the education and the benefit of your knowledge and experience.

And to think all I wanted was one certificate to go with my collection of badges!

Dave:

[Eric JB]

As english isn't my mother's language , sometimes it is hard to explain something in another language!!!!

I didn't know that NORMALLY is such a strong word in english.

What I was thinking of was the use of this word as in:
"when there is a car accident on the road normally the police will arrive to have a look" NORMALLY = here saying : not always - sometimes they will not arrive.

Normally as I used it didn't say EXPECTED, can not find it back that way in my writing.
I didn't say that the lack of a Dönitz or Sohler sign was problematic.

I too said that I couldn't find the signature in connection with uboats.

I will never say that I am a specialist.
I am only researching the uboatwar for 23 years.
I can say that I am a happy guy, fortunated (happy/lucky etc) to visit vets in that past years (and yes besides a few photos I got they all still have their wartime memorabilia - as I am interested in their personal history).
Several times I was a few days in the uboatarchive.

Not using NORMALLY this time I will try to use another word for perhaps a better understanding, for what I tried and still try to say.

As seen during visits to vets and the archive, information from not visited vets (writing) and contact with collectors.
I think or maybe might suggest: that in my opinion MOST (=used here as not always , not always necessary, = MOST is not saying all of them) of the documents as EK and UBootkriegsabzeichen are signed by Dönitz, the Flottilla Chef, FdU West, FdU Nordmeer
or FdU Ost.

I DIDN'T say that it WASN'T possible to find documents with signatures from the:
FdU Ausbildungsflottillen
HKU Höheres Kommando der Ubootausbildung
Ubootlehrdivision
Ubootschullflottille
Ubootausbildungsabteilung
Technische Ausbildungsgruppe für Front Uboote (Agru-Front)
Erprobungsgruppe Uboote
Ubootabnamekommando (UAK)
Abwickelungsamt für Uboote
Marineärztliches Forschunginstitut für Ubootmedizin
Klinische Untersuchungsstelle für Ubootfahrer
Admiral der Nordseestation
Admiral der Ostseestation

And I think there are also other units possible

But normally spoken (see normally above) most of the documents will be signed by Dönitz, FdU West/Nordmeer/Ost or the Flottille Chef.

I hope that there are people that are able to understand my poor english writing, I know there are many writing mistakes in it.
All I can say is ; I did my best.


Eric-Jan Bakker

[W. C. Stump]

BETTER THAN I COULD

Sir:

I was born in the mountain region of Kentucky. As my old Granny would say, "A fer ways back in the sticks". I can hardly speak English and only enough foreign languages to get by finding a hotel, restaurant, and in my younger days, finding Canal Street in Amsterdam. Your command of the English language is very acceptable and you need not apologize for any mistakes. None here on the forum are perfect.

[Gordon Williamson]

"when there is a car accident on the road normally the police will arrive to have a look"
Well, by that standard, maybe 50% of the time or less.

Strictly speaking a "Norm" is an "authoritative standard" or a "Binding principle" and something which happens normally is suggested not to deviate from that "Norm". The word is generally mis-used to simply mean something that will often be the case.
But we are arguing over semantics here, the important thing is that the document was highly suspect for other reasons anyway and at least David is now aware of the doubts that hang over it.