KM Officer's Iron Cross Cert.

[davidww]

I have this KM Officer's 1st Class Iron Cross certificate, please can anybody tell me who the signature belongs to?

Many thanks,
Dave

[Ian Jewison]

Welcome Dave,

Can you post the whole document and a larger scan of the stamp?
Initially I don't like it!!!!


/Ian

[davidww]

Hello Ian,

Many thanks for your post.

Here is an image of the whole document. I will try and get a larger scan of the stamp posted tomorrow.

As a badge collector I don't know anything about certificates so any information you can provide will be a great help to me.

Kind regards,
Dave

[Ian Jewison]

Thanks for the scan Dave,

Is the stamp actually legible in real life? i.e. can you make out the unit or number in it?

Unforutnatley to me it looks like a fake, however I hope not for your sake......

If you can provide what it says or a large legible scan that would be great.

Regards, Ian

[Rick Research]

Well, "Günther Heydemann" certainly existed. He was a Kapitänleutnant with seniority 1.4.41, so that raises some flags on this date several weeks later:

it could be processing from when he WAS an Oberleutnant zS, or he could have had a seniority bump back later to 1 April...

Günther Heydemann was a Knight's Cross winning Uboat commander... so quite full details are available on him.

The astonishingly wonderful "Uboat Net" has his birth to death biography, two photos, and confirms this as the date of his EK1--

http://uboat.net/men/heydemann.htm

IF this document is OK!

I get absolutely nothing sensible out of the signature, however, and "Korvettenkapitän" without the arm of service suffix is worrisome.

The most obvious key-- from a SCAN-- that we can offer is what that stamp actually says... since Heydemann's service assignments in April 1941 are known, and perhaps from that a WW2 Uboat guy can see whether the signature is anything possible but illegible from the units' commanders.

The paper itself looks funny, at least from the scan: thin and gray rather than stiff and off-white creamy.

We're rooting for you, but MUST have clear scans and accurate descriptions. Rick

[W. C. Stump]

Re: KM Officer's Iron Cross Cert.

Originally posted by davidww
I have this KM Officer's 1st Class Iron Cross certificate, please can anybody tell me who the signature belongs to?

Many thanks,
Dave

All the Kreigsmarine awarded Iron Cross Documents are signed by the bestowing officer and lists his unit. Here is two from one recipient. the first is the 2nd Class signed in facsimile by Donitz. Note the papers on these.

[W. C. Stump]

THE 1ST CLASS

Here is the U-Boat man's 1st class document.

[davidww]

Ian, Rick and W. C., many thanks for your posts.

With respect to the colour and quality of paper, it is an off-white creamy colour and is stiff card (despite the fact that the photos look grey) so that part sounds ok.

From what you say, the stamp however may be a problem.

I cannot make out clearly what is written underneath the eagle.

It only has "kriegsmarine" above. The colour of the stamp appears to be purple (quite faded) rather than black.

I've tried to take an enlarged photo of the stamp but unfortunately don't have the equipment to make a clearer picture from which you might be able to give more definite information.

Thanks once again for trying to help.
Dave

[Ian Jewison]

Dave,

Is this a recent purchase and if so can you take it back?

The fact that it is a well known submariner with dates of awards etc. easy to find worries me combined with the "dodgy" stamp and the fact we do not recognise the signature.

It would be great to own an EK document to a Knight's Cross winner and a U-boat Commander...and because of this they are quite often faked.

The stamp does look to me like one of the many "repro" ones floating around.....

Look at the stamps that Bill has posted...they may not be 100% visible but they are legible!

Sorry but I would not personally like this in my collection!

If you can get a friend to post a crisper scan please do so to put us all at rest, but from what you have said combined with what we have said above it does not look promising!!!!


Sorry! Ian

[Rick Research]

The color of the stamp is not an issue-- they are far more often purply-blue than other colors.

It's what it says, and the detail of the stamp eagle.

And, of course, being able to verify a signature which may be either an appalling scribble or sheer gibberish.

Given the normal practice of granting one year's backdated seniority on bestowal of a Knight's or German cross, "1.4.41" rank seniority might have been jumped back... in 1943... from original seniority in 1942.

That I can't say. You need a real Uboat expert and we can only offer more on clearer scans.

[W. C. Stump]

ANOTHER SET TO A U-BOAT MAN

Here is another 2nd Class Iron Cross document to a U-Boat man.

[W. C. Stump]

THE 1ST CLASS IRON CROSS DOCUMENT

Here is the 2nd U-Boat man's Iron Cross document. Note it was a 1945 award, a long time since 1940 when he received the 2nd Class. I may be sticking my foot in my mouth, but I don't think your document is original. Maybe Gordon Williamson, a noted authority in the U-Boat Field and the Iron Cross can lend his opinion. However, I can't seem to find where a awarding officers bestowing the Iron Cross doesn't have the branch of service and his position after his name.

[Eric JB]

I think the document is a fake, sorry.

Normaly the document would be signed by Dönitz together with his rank and possible his function, or otherwise by Korvettenkapitän und Flottillechef Sohler.

The signature under this document says nothing to me.
Can not even find this man with the uboats.

Sorry, maybe someone has a better message for you.

Eric-Jan Bakker

[predax]

also, there is an error in one of the names on the documents..


B E H R E N S and B E H R E N D S

[Rick Research]

Such name garbling doesn't bother me at all-- it's a simple, easily understood clerical error. I have a group of documents over years where the poor man's name appears constantly shifting between "Jacobs" and "Jakobs."