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**François SAEZ** · 12-12-2002, 01:35 AM

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/germ.../documents.htm

**Richard** · 12-13-2002, 01:51 AM

Hello Francois, thank you for the link. Here's a picture of the document in question. The link you sent appears to indicate this was not a version that was produced and therefore this appears to be a reproduction. Other than the cross placement, it is an excellent reproduction. The cross placement is the only thing that would tip you off. Would you know where I might be able to research information on the recipient that is printed on the document?
Richard V

**Denis** · 12-13-2002, 02:50 AM

Hello Richard
Several Books covering recipients of the German Cross in Gold were published and are still available.
Have a look on the thread "A book list for our hobby..." in the section "Recipients Lists", you will have the answer.
The latest one was coauthored by Klayus Patzwall and Veit Scherzer and it costs about $ 75.00. However, maybe a fellow member could provide you the info. Sorry but from my side, Ican't since my books are not with me at the time I write
Hope this helps
Regards
Denis

**Richard** · 12-13-2002, 06:55 PM

Hello Denis, thank you very much for the information.
Richard V

**RPN** · 12-14-2002, 07:30 PM

Hello Richard

I can't explain the offset DK and haven't found a photo of an original doc with this feature, but I wouldn't (yet) discount this document. Here's a comparison with a DK doc I have ... sorry, but it's in a frame ... reflection etc etc. Dates of awards very close .. very close in style of hand-lettering and other detail - except for the DK!

Gilberg is listed in Horst Scheibert's book "Die Trager Des Deutschen Kreuzes In Gold - Das Heer". No other info other than what appears on the doc itself.

The doc overall looks OK (IMVeryHO). Other perceptions please?

Best wishes
Paul

**Richard** · 12-14-2002, 10:13 PM

Hi Paul, thanks for the reply. If the DK were not off center, my suspicions would never have been raised as it looks perfect in every other way. Does your document show traces of pencil under the inked in name and details? It is very clear that the lettering on the doc was first done in pencil as a guide and then inked over.
Richard V

**W. C. Stump** · 12-14-2002, 11:45 PM

FOR RICHARD

Richard I posted example of two of my German Crosses in Gold documents and made comments. Now the scans and posts have disappeared. I found the posts, but they have been deleted. Something is wrong on this thread to have my these posts deleted.

Here is the comment I made:

DIFFERENT AND NOT LIKE ORIGINALS
I am afraid that I don't care for the document you posted. All I have ever owned have the botton of the star pointing towards the "E".

Fakes of both the silver and gold German Cross have been around for years. Fakes were made in England in the late 60's that looked close, but were not right.

**Richard** · 12-14-2002, 11:51 PM

Hello Bill, you are not dreaming. I originally posted this thread here but never got a response so I reposted this same thread in the Association members only forum. That is the thread in which you posted the pics. I appreciate the addition of your info and the pictures. As of yet I have not run across any picture of this document that shows a variance in the placement of the cross from the documents you posted. I am trying to see if I can get information on the supposed recipient to see if he even existed, and if so, did he actually receive this award.
Richard V

**W. C. Stump** · 12-14-2002, 11:54 PM

I THOUGHT I HAD WENT BLIND

Whew!!!! I thought I had went blind or developed a bad memory loss.

**RPN** · 12-15-2002, 01:01 AM

Yes Richard ...

Under a strong light and with a magnifying glass I can see very faint lines under the red/brown ink.

By the way, Gilberg is not listed as a RKT (one always hopes!) ... as I said, his name, unit and award date are in the DK winners list.

Very interesting!

Paul

**Richard** · 12-15-2002, 05:53 PM

Hello Paul, thanks for the information. I must have had a brainfart when I read your first post as I completely overlooked the fact you had already mentioned he was a winner of the DK. Now all I would like to try to do is research his unit. Can anyone give my any advice as to a website or publication that would be useful?
Richard V

**ManuelR** · 12-21-2002, 04:36 PM

richard he belonged to the 208 ID which fought in
poland,france and russia where it was taken prisioner after the war.regards manuel

**Richard** · 12-22-2002, 11:20 PM

Hello Manuel, thank you very much for the additonal information.
Richard V

**Rick White** · 12-24-2002, 02:14 AM

Hi Richard,
I have scrutinized the document over and over, and everything other than that darn DK emblem is right on. On the stamp, the wings of the Eagle point from "r" to "e" and the lettering, as someone else said is correct. I just can't figure out why, if someone was going to the trouble to fake this, they would have done so on a document with an obvious error (the DK). If I was printing out a ream of fake DKiG documents, I would have certainly destroyed this one and done the fakery on a document that had all the "right" details. Why start off a crooked piece of work with such an obvious flaw? On the other hand, how could the wartime quality and control standards be so lax to have allowed this one to pass? Things were not that bad in January, 1944. Very curious, indeed

Below is a similar document to a Kompaniechef from my collection to compare with.

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German Cross in Gold award document question

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