Originally posted by max history
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.Last edited by Luc; 06-18-2005, 01:12 AM. -
Originally posted by max history
Interesting assesment. Any logic or rational behind it?
Richard VComment
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The signatures on both documents are by the same hand, as is the Oct 1940 signature posted by MW. Unfortunately, not that of Sepp Dietrich. It appears that these documents are part of the batch of forgeries sold on the open market some time back. The formation of the writing is totally different to that of Dietrich. The signatures do not have the flow of a normal autograph and both have the appearance of an unsteady hand, usually evident at some point with forgeries. There are marked differences with size and spacing of the letters. To be honest, they are quite poor fakes and it will be plainly evident to anyone who is familiar with Dietrich's handwriting and signature that they are so.
Max.Last edited by max history; 06-17-2005, 01:42 PM.Comment
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Max.
It's good to see you over here. Many members will benefit from your knowledge of 'The Black Order'.
Having said that........these Dietrich signatures would probably have fooled me too. The Suetterlin version in particular.Comment
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Max,
Many thanks for your reply, I am not saying that the doc is a fake, I do not have the knowledge, but I find it strange that "suddenly" you see a lot of LAH docs in the market (Detlev, Weitze, v Lukacs etc.). I always thougt (read the books of Robin ) that WSS docs are rare and docs of the LAH are extremely rare.
Just my thoughts..
Best regards,
ReneComment
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Okay, so which Dietrich signature is the correct type and does anybody have an original LAH signed doc?
Rene Chavez
Http://axis101.bizland.comComment
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I've been a collector of Third Reich documents and in particular SS documents for thirty years. I've also visited many archives and thumbed my way through literally thousands of original SS documents for research purposes. After all these years, one gets a certain amount of experience!Originally posted by Kuifje69Max,
Many thanks for your reply, I am not saying that the doc is a fake, I do not have the knowledge, but I find it strange that "suddenly" you see a lot of LAH docs in the market (Detlev, Weitze, v Lukacs etc.). I always thougt (read the books of Robin ) that WSS docs are rare and docs of the LAH are extremely rare.
Just my thoughts..
Best regards,
Rene
I can't agree that W-SS documents are rare as I see plenty offered in auctions and by dealers. LAH docs are more collectable as they are regarded by many as the elite of the SS, but they are also readily available, albeit a bit more expensive. Dietrich's signature is common. I have examples in the double figures in my own collection and I have sold or exchanged many more over the years. I have been through his personal files in the Bundesarchiv BDC and there is not one example of a sütterlin signature. All his signatures were similar in character.
It is quite common for batches of forged signatures to appear on the market all at once, especially when a forger produces a number of examples. He'll knock out several and sell them as a group or distribute them around to different unsuspecting auction houses or dealers. Don't forget also that there are some unscrupulous dealers out there. I know of one dealer who appears to have "commissioned" a forger to produce various fake signed documents and photos.
Max.Last edited by max history; 06-17-2005, 03:03 PM.Comment
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To Max ;
Nice to read some other opinion's here .. So you make your statement that Kuifje's doc ( post 1 ) is fake , as wel as doc in post 5 ( one of mine ) , probably also the doc of Luc ( Wisch document) in post 11 .
Clearly the same signatures !!
Probably also the signature is bad as well in post 6 ?
Ok , your statement , but why not show us some good examples of your collection , some early war 40 or 41 dated docs .
I've handled and owned many dozens of Dietrich signatures last 20 years ( to Kuifje ; they are not rare as Dietrich signed allot during these years ) and never found a good faked combination ( I mean a good faked paper , stamp & signature on documents ... I cannot say the same about photos )
I am a novice in finding a good forgered combination also, but maybe you can show us also such one ?
For your interrest the document in post 5 is a award doc for the IAB , signed by him at Metz (France) , I've saw at least 5 or more others in the past . Many times in groupings .. By the way Forman show the same type of document for the GAB dated okt. 3th 1940 at Metz with matching signature as post 5 in his first volume 1st edition 1995 Guide to.... on page 315 bottom right . Probably again a fake ?
To Luc ;
Why did you deleted your posts ?? Nothing wrong with showing here something to educate some others in one or another way.
Marc.Comment
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MarcOriginally posted by MVV
Because it is so easy to break down a piece on the forum without giving any prove.. I know it is a good document and I completely agree with your opinion.
I have other good documents signed by Dietrich, Peiper, .. but I'm not going to put it again on the forum. I first want to see His documents..Last edited by Luc; 06-19-2005, 12:18 PM.Comment
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I don't wish to get into arguments over this. You have your opinion and I have mine. If you are happy with them, then that's fine by me. I stand by my observations that the signatures highlighted by me in a previous post are not written by Dietrich. For a second opinion, I have referred them to a Third Reich documents expert and a well known Third Reich autograph dealer who both agree with my assessment. You can see two of my Dietrich signatures in the book "The SS Leadership Corps".
Max.Last edited by max history; 06-18-2005, 07:18 AM.Comment
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It was an polite and open question from my side ... at least you should have the courage to show us some examples and give us at least a name from your specialist ... these are no arguments , it's just a question .
marc.Comment
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I only have Wittmann's file from SS, but I have several Heer officer files. Usually I see very few signatures from the soldier himself, because the file is all about him and something not written by him. Are there many Dietrich's signatures in Dietrich's files? Just wondering.Comment
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Marc,Originally posted by MVV
My answer was polite and straightforward, pointing out that we had a difference of opinion which I did not wish to fall out over. It is not a matter of courage, but a matter of opinion and I am a little surprised at your insinuation, as you do not know me. It would be a very sad day if I lacked courage to post something on an internet chat room. I cannot post any images on this website for two reasons: 1) for some reason it won't allow me to and 2) I don't have a scanner at the moment. Consequently, I directed you to illustrations of two of my Dietrich signatures, the next best thing. I am well known on other forums and if you knew me you would be aware that I never shirk from a challenge.
I refuse to name any third party I consult because I do not have their permission to do so. For obvious reasons, they do not wish to be associated by name with any assessment of a document or signature which has nothing to do with them and I respect their wishes.
As I said before, if you are happy with your opinion of these signatures, then that's fine by me. I was just pointing out my opinion and reading between the lines from comments made by some others, I am not alone in doubting the authenticity of these signatures. However, the bottom line is, I think they are not what they are supposed to be and you do. I'm happy with my assessment and you are happy with yours. Shall we just leave it at that?
Max.Comment
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Dietrich's original files at the BDC consisted of his SSO, RuSHA and PK files. Contained in this type of file were examples of his handwriting (Lebenslauf), letters to the SS personnel office signed by him, letters to the RuSHA signed by him and any Party correspondence. These are in addition to any correspondence/records concerning him.Originally posted by Akira Takiguchi
Also, his signature appears in many hundreds of files of LAH members under his command. You can therefore see that any serious researcher who had access to original SS files would be conversant with his signature. In none of the thousands of files I accessed over the years did I see a strong variation of his signature and never one written in sütterlin script.
Max.Comment
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Max,
Giving the fact that you didn't saw these before led you conclude that these are fakes ?? That's not enough for me ..
Why should someone make so damn good forgery 's , good documents , good stamps , time & dating area just perfect ...to put at last a never existing signature on it ... that makes no sense !?
So I can conclude that it's your statement that Peter v Lucasz doc actually on his site as sold should be a fake , the wounded doc in black for Theodor Wisch ( see HH auction nr. 6044 /feb. 1997) is a fake , the one at Forman's guide etc... all Sutterlin , so all fakes..
I don't know , but I think maybe you need to do some more research on this .
marc.
ps - ps You also don't know me , but before I put on something the stamp FAKE , I have allot of proof behind my back to put into the fire ..Comment
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