Michael Wittmann Decortions

[markus]

Here´s a photo of the swords document: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...8&postcount=56

Wow, a beauty. Never signed though. Bet it never reached his family.

[Gran Sasso]

While I cannot speak as to the uniforms; the awards were purchased directly from Wittman's family by the collector and are now in North America.

For sure he had more than one set of decorations, so thats the explanation why one set is in the US, and the other set, worn when he was KIA, showing battle damage, is still in normandy.

The family still have a greatcoat, as well as some of his favourite leather jackets. The family owns a bakery today.

[guevo65]

Hallo Gran Sasso!

For sure he had more than one set of decorations, so thats the explanation why one set is in the US, and the other set, worn when he was KIA, showing battle damage, is still in normandy.

The family still have a greatcoat, as well as some of his favourite leather jackets. The family owns a bakery today.

Yoau are from bavaria?
Dann können wir ja auf deutsch kommunizieren, oder?
Habe Interesse an alles über Wittmann und Peiper speziell über den Verbleib von deren Orden usw. War mal auf dem Friedhof in Vogeltal aus dem er ja stammte und hab mir dei Gedenktafel von ihm angesehen!
Du schreibst das die Familie heute eine Bäckerei betreibt, ist das in Bayern bzw. in welcher Gegend und läuft die unter dem Namenn Wittmann?
Seine Frau hieß ja später Helmke, oder?
Außerdem kann ich nicht ganz nachvollziehen ob seine Orden nun in den USA sind oder bei der Familie in Bayern, da diese ja laut der Fotos im Bildarchiv von 2007 noch unter Copyright der Fa. Wittmann liegen!

[markus]

Michel Wittmann

Frau Helmke sold her husband's paperwork and apparently decorations as well to a well-off U.S. collector. I saw the "Überlassungsurkunde" / certificate, she signed and in which it says that these are the medals her husband wore in combat etc. and that the cross was a K&Q, etc.

By all due respect, when I see her signature under that certificate I have my very serious doubts she had any idea about what she signed. Such a document, at least under German law would have no legal value at all. I guess it is nice to have for a collector, but I personally would never feel 100% sure about the awards really having belonged to Wittmann, not even coming from the widow herself.

And I also still can not believe they actually still had Wittmann's formal sword doc made.

Sorry for all the negativity folks...

[frankandfrank]

Yes this is correct. The document from Mrs. Helmke is very questionable if you know the german law. But also questionable are the complete Wittmann Story about his decorations! If he had 2nd pieces of his medals??

It the same fake story about den Theodor Wisch estate which was selling complete many years ago in Germany!

[J C Gray]

Also sine he join the SS at 01/04/37 he was qualified to the SS long service medal for 4 years at 01/04/41, however I don't know if this medal was awarded automaticly at the exact date or was it delay for some reasons (like being in combat situations, approval by commander, etc.).
Any addition information and correction you could provide would be welcome.

The SS-Service Awards were not automatically awarded after 4, 8 or 12 years...there was a strict proposal procedure which had to be followed to the letter. This basically involved an SS Commander at Standarte level submitting a proposal form detailing the service history of all those SS men who (in his opinion) qualified for the relevant award, through Himmler to Meißner. These proposal forms were submitted quarterly by the 1st. of February, May, August & December respectively and only after final approval by Hitler was the award actually bestowed, assuming that the candidate met all the criteria for the award. Of note, one minor criminal conviction was permitted in this implementation criteria, as long as the offender had "since that time, behaved in a perfectly obedient manner".

[jenova4]

There is an English collector living somewhere in Cyprus that has some of MW's paperwork and other items purchased from the family including a leather greatcoat and a number of other personal items.
I have seen them when I was on holiday there a few years ago and I met him by chance at a flea market, but cant remember the name of the village he lives in.
Will get the holiday pix out and see if I can find out more for you.

[rob NL]

Does anybody know where that ribbon bar ended?
It wasn’t in the auction as far as I know.

[markus]

Does anybody know where that ribbon bar ended?
It wasn’t in the auction as far as I know.

The best items left the estate already in 90'ies long before the auction.

I believe the wedding tunic already had a replacement ribbon bar on it when it went into a German collection.

Some of the medals, etc. I have here, but unfortunately not the ribbon bar.

Cheers,
Markus

[rob NL]

The best items left the estate already in 90'ies long before the auction.

I believe the wedding tunic already had a replacement ribbon bar on it when it went into a German collection.

Some of the medals, etc. I have here, but unfortunately not the ribbon bar.

Cheers,
Markus

The medals that were on the wedding tunic came from the widow.
There was no ribbon bar, but I have pics where you see the bar with the KC etc.

and I’m sure the widow would not put a replacement on!

I actually think that besides the awards like KC, OL and swords the wedding tunic, trousers and shoes are the best items.

I prefer to see pictures where you can identify the tunic in wear.
The name tag is a big plus also, combined with photographic evidence.

[markus]

The medals that were on the wedding tunic came from the widow.
There was no ribbon bar, but I have pics where you see the bar with the KC etc.

and I’m sure the widow would not put a replacement on!

I actually think that besides the awards like KC, OL and swords the wedding tunic, trousers and shoes are the best items.

I prefer to see pictures where you can identify the tunic in wear.
The name tag is a big plus also, combined with photographic evidence.

I just double-checked my files this morning: At the time the wedding tunic (stripped of all insignia but the shoulderboards) was with the widow it shows to have had the right ribbon bar on w/o medals.

As soon as the tunic was on display in the private collection it bore another ribbon bar however (+restored insignia & medals).

It's fair to assume the wedding tunic left the estate w/o the ribbon bar, which IMO makes sense since the medals (the ones in the photo you refer to and others) are all fractured into different collections nowadays. You must understand that the estate was huge and items left at different points in time.

This is why in my personal view Photo-Affidavits are a true pain to ask for at the moment you get the items, but as years pass on they turn out to be historically important to preserve the authenticity of each item, especially when it comes to medals & insignia.

That ribbon bar must still be out there with someone!

Cheers,
Markus

[rob NL]

Yes, that bar must be out there. Another hunt
The tunic was indeed very nicely restored with the effects that the widow gave to the collector that bought the wedding tunic ( he wore it on other occasions also) the overcoat, the leather coat, shoes and boots that he wore to the Tiger Factory, from the widow.
The bar that was on it with the collector was an easy to spot replacement as it’s totally different in form.

[markus]

Yes, that bar must be out there. Another hunt
The tunic was indeed very nicely restored with the effects that the widow gave to the collector that bought the wedding tunic ( he wore it on other occasions also) the overcoat, the leather coat, shoes and boots that he wore to the Tiger Factory, from the widow.
The bar that was on it with the collector was an easy to spot replacement as it’s totally different in form.

The German collector had originally placed some awkward looking collar tabs (like that replacement ribbon bar) on the tunic which did not match the ones in Michel's wedding photo at all.

I'll keep my eyes open and see if I can help you locate the real ribbon bar.

Cheers,
Markus