Luftwaffe Tank Badge

[DonC]

This thread reminds me why I stick to cloth!


Don

[Marc Garlasco]

Chris,

So you really like them don't you?
Regards,
Marc

[DasEiserneKreuz]

Chris,

They may very well all be fake. I personally would not touch them. But, can you provide any detailed info on who made these fakes, and when they were made? It seems that most of the big dealers (including Detlev) and authors believe these badges to have existed in at least some degree. They must have some reason for believing these to be original. I can't believe that this is just some kind of industry-wide conspiracy to con collectors.

[Robin Lumsden]

Chris,

They may very well all be fake. I personally would not touch them. But, can you provide any detailed info on who made these fakes, and when they were made? It seems that most of the big dealers (including Detlev) and authors believe these badges to have existed in at least some degree. They must have some reason for believing these to be original. I can't believe that this is just some kind of industry-wide conspiracy to con collectors.

Unfortunately, 99% of the time you can never prove if a thing is right or wrong. You either believe it or you don't. End of story. It's like religion.

[mads]

Chris may use harsh words, but he is totally right.
These are and will always be fake, but ofcourse if everyone here is so set on making these legit, they will probably be in 10 years time.
I believe in the paper award, but not the badge.
Not until I see a picture that has no maybes about it.
No, not a picture of a LGAB looking like one.
I am not god and the master of these badges, but suddenly they appear like this out of nowhere...come on guys...you have to much money to spend if you buy a questionable piece as this is.
Hate me if you will, but this is my opinion and I am within my rights to voice them.

Mads

[stogieman]

Mads....

Hi Mads, no-one will infringe on your right to speak your mind, or express your opinion. For me, the jury's out on these badges, with compelling evidence that some were produced in the basic (black, not silver, not numbered) format.

What is offensive, is people that feel it necessary to express their opinions as if they are the sole authority on the subject and then do so in a manner that demeans any collector who either does not agree with said poster, or has not been associated with collecting long enough.... That's offensive and it is done repeatedly by some individuals on this forum.

My experience in life is that people who can "walk the walk", rarely "talk the talk".. as there is no need for them to promote themselves as their knowledge is clear and shared freely in non-offensive manners.

It's kind of like when someone proclaims themselves to be a "war hero".... I've met more than my fair share of people who would fit into that category from WW2-Vietnam. There's not a single one of them who would ever label themselves as "hero"....

[Sebastian Bianchi]

This thread was edited again. If it can't stay on topic, it will be closed... which would be a shame. This thread is about the Luftwaffe Tank Badge.

[Dave Irving]

Chris Mason is right. I am amazed that he has not been silenced yet . But I can see it coming. The badge is a fake. Simple as that, ladies. The burden of proof does not rest on naming the fakers. It rests on the balance of historical fact. The facts are that not one German veteran of a unit whose members would have been immediately, even retroactively, eligible to get this badge has agreed in the past sixty years that he or any of his comrades received and wore the Luftwaffe Tank Assault Badge and that there is no photographic evidence in any of the archives, researched painstakingly by many intelligent people again for the past sixty years. A few dubious-looking paybook entries and typewritten award documents have been proffered as proof that the badge was awarded on paper. Perhaps it was but the couple of examples of supposed wartime documentation I have examined looked odd to me. And now, all of a sudden, we have three of these badges on the internet at the same time, in the hands of dealers who can all boast a history of quite spectacular "mistakes" concerning some pretty high end stuff.

To the gentleman who suggested that dealers cannot be part of a conspiracy to con collectors, I suggest that you do a few searches in this forum and in others. The evidence is there but there will always be people who refuse to see it. If these badges are real then why hasn't someone rushed to snap up the one for $2900 from Ivan, who is also a sponsor of this website? $2900 is a bargain! The other two were $4000 and $4500. Maybe Detlev should forego his usual 100% mark-up and buy the badge from Atlantic Crossroads Inc for $2900, do a Certificate of Authenticity, and sell it for $4000 or $3500 without the little cardboard box . $600 for a few minutes work. That's more than some attorneys make! Go on! Buy the one for $2900! It's a bargain. And as soon as the dealers and authors have convinced enough people that these badges are real, the value will increase and you will make money on it! Where is W C Stump when we need him?

Dave Irving

[Gaspare]

** "Where is W C Stump when we need him? " **
He's spinning over in his grave about this topic. , G.

[J Melvin]

Chris Mason is right. I am amazed that he has not been silenced yet . But I can see it coming. The badge is a fake. Simple as that, ladies. The burden of proof does not rest on naming the fakers. It rests on the balance of historical fact. The facts are that not one German veteran of a unit whose members would have been immediately, even retroactively, eligible to get this badge has agreed in the past sixty years that he or any of his comrades received and wore the Luftwaffe Tank Assault Badge and that there is no photographic evidence in any of the archives, researched painstakingly by many intelligent people again for the past sixty years.

This brings up an interesting point as to what a vet remembers. I have many friends that are reenactors that have talked to numerous WSS vets over the years. They always quiz them on their stuff. Especially camo. The question always comes up what pattern that they wore and what model. Ninety-nine point nine percent of them answer the same way: "It was camouflage. I wore what was issued. I didn't care or pay attention to what pattern it was."

I think that the same may be said about this award. There is no doubt that if it was ever issued in the unnumbered version, it was done so in very, very limited quantity. So, the failed memory of an old vet (who lost his awards in most cases upon surrender) really doesn't answer the question of whether it was ever issued or worn.

Photographic evidence is tough towards the end of the war. Look at photos out there. Way better than half taken during the war by German kriegsberechter were done so before the tides started shifting. So, the fact that a photo of an award this late in creation does not exist is not again in and of itself proof that it was never issued.

The award was authorized. There are award documents reflecting its award. There are examples that seem to reflect wartime construction.

I've corresponded with Detlev about the Luftwaffe close combat clasp before. With regard to it, he flat out stated that he didn't believe that they existed. So, he is not one that will not take the hard stand on an item if he is confident of its nonissuance. In this case, it would appear that he believes a few were issued.

I'm not an award collector (thank god). So, difficult decisions like this, I do not have to make.

[mrg]

Have just finished reading the thread wow. For what its worth (being a new member), i have never believed in these. For me there is not enough period evidence to these awards to indicate otherwise. Especially when compared to other awards.Believers and non believers just a quote. WE DANCE AROUND IN A RING AND SUPPOSE WHILST THE SECRET SITS IN THE MIDDLE AND KNOWS?

[DasEiserneKreuz]

The Luft Tank Badge grouping to the Hermann Goering Panzer Division SGT that I posted in this thread is listed for sale on Warelics Militaria Collectibles. Does anyone know anything about this dealer? I have not heard him discussed too much on the forum. He has a lot of rare high-end stuff, including a cased Rath DKiG with Diamonds!

[mmiller]

Hello DEK,

IMHO, I don't feel real comfortable with the badges I looked at on the Warelics Militaria Collectibles site. Maybe it's just me, but the hallmarks, the colors, and the configurations, just 'don't cut it'. His Luft tank badge is marked G.H. Osang.

Other opinions?

Regards,
Mark

[Marc Garlasco]

Mark,

I agree - I stay away. VERY high-end, and all the more worrisome.

Marc

[Lemm]

A very interesting thread thats for sure and of course there still exists two schools of thought who might I add, have both posted some interesting logic behind their decision to believe or not believe that this badge is genuine or not.

As for me I think I will stay on the fence with this one. I must say from the pic posted it does look like it could be the real thing (Detlev's offering and not the others) but until I have handled it I really couldnt give a much better opinion than that. I do however believe that condeming the badge just because you havent seen one on a picture before is not based on sound fact because lets face it I dont think too many cheesy portraits would have been taken in the turmoil that was Germany during 1945.

Anyway, just my thoughts. I dont have $4000 anyway so I will stay on the fence.

Phil