Pilots, Observer, Radio and Paratrooper Badges for inspection.

[Rich G]

Personally, I'm not holding out much hope for the FJ badge.

Rich

[mmiller]

Tim,

I'm posting an old scan of my JMME FJ. I tend to think it more closely resembles your example, than the one starting the thread. Once again, in addition to the things you have pointed out, the hinge barrel is not the same dimension as yours and mine. May be a small detail, but that is what the hobby has become.

Mark

[Tim B.]

Hi Mark,

No, completely agree, it's not correct. I assume the whole hinge was replaced due to a repair in that area and cannot tell if the hardware is even brass colored (as it should be) or silver. The PIC's have that tone to it that makes it hard to say 100%.

Either way, the poor repair and use of non-standard replacement pieces make the badge nothing more than a uniform display piece, providing its not a cast copy altogether. The rivets are still wrong and that leads me to think more along the lines of a cast.

Again, it's a great price for six badges and even if one or two come to be 100% original, then the buyer did okay. My concern is, we see two items that are highly suspect, a third (Deumer RO/AG) that I've concerns on, and a badge that has been slightly damaged and excessively cleaned, yet still has a fair amount of corrosion evident. That leaves two badges that might make the purchase worthwhile IMO.

Personally, I've never been fond of the IMME hallmark but, I do believe they are accepted. I just remember seeing a lot these dark eagle Luft badges coming out of Pt. St. Lucie many years ago and many had that IMME mark.
Just saying...

Tim

[AFF96]

Tim,
I agree with your assessment as well. Very good overview!

[magnusmilitaria]

Im not diggin that BSW pilot at all.

Is it too many IPAs tonight?

Or maybe you guys just need to have a few drinks with me!

[Jos L C]

My concerns are the BSW, para and Deumer ROAG ..

Think a casting seam is visible all around the BSW bird ..

Jos.

[Tim B.]

Is the Deumer RO/AG an aluminum bird?

Tim

[90th Light]

Here is an early "Jmme" that they were wearing on Kreta for comparison.

Brass rivets and all,

Chris

[90th Light]

Here is an early "Jmme" that they were wearing on Kreta for comparison.

Brass rivets and all ( reverse side),

Chris

[90th Light]

Here is an early "Jmme" that they were wearing on Kreta for comparison.

Brass rivets and all ( close up front ),

Chris

[90th Light]

Here is an early "Jmme" that they were wearing on Kreta for comparison.

Brass rivets and all ( close up reverse ),

Chris

[90th Light]

In Tom Durante's absolutely excellent book on the subject, he calls the one I have posted a " Type F " ( reference pages 302 to 305 )

Is the one which started this thread, a " Type F " or a " Type G "

Perhaps Tom could confirm ,

Chris

[Tim B.]

Chris,

Not meaning to jump in prior to Tom having a chance to respond here but it's been awhile and I wanted to add a couple of comments.

The only old PIC I have of a Jmme & Sohn para with brass rivets is one that JT West shown a long time ago. I'll post it again here for sake of the discussion but, I have not had a chance to ask his permission. Hope he doesn't mind?

Anyway, his badge is the 100% Jmme & Sohn Para style and not one with the Juncker pilot wreath. This is the only PIC of one with brass rivets I have on file; all the rest have the pinched silver color rivets, including both 100% Jmme as well as the ones utilizing the Juncker pilot wreath.

I'm not kean on your badge, sorry. I hope you don't think I always single you out but your items always have me scratching my head. It may be the lighting or slight lack of focus but it seems very soft. I actually like the one that started this thread better. No offense meant!

Again, the para that was part of this group of badges may in fact be good but, I would like to see much better PIC's from straight on. IMO, the details are very soft compared to others I've seen. It may be due to cleaning, as other badges in this group have clearly been cleaned at some point. Still, the hinge repair is sloppy and as Mark correctly observed, the dimensions on the hinge are different from other JMME para badges that have no issues.

What does the owner have to add? I assume he does not have them in hand yet?

Tim

[90th Light]

Chris,

Not meaning to jump in prior to Tom having a chance to respond here but it's been awhile and I wanted to add a couple of comments.

The only old PIC I have of a Jmme & Sohn para with brass rivets is one that JT West shown a long time ago. I'll post it again here for sake of the discussion but, I have not had a chance to ask his permission. Hope he doesn't mind?

Anyway, his badge is the 100% Jmme & Sohn Para style and not one with the Juncker pilot wreath. This is the only PIC of one with brass rivets I have on file; all the rest have the pinched silver color rivets, including both 100% Jmme as well as the ones utilizing the Juncker pilot wreath.

I'm not kean on your badge, sorry. I hope you don't think I always single you out but your items always have me scratching my head. It may be the lighting or slight lack of focus but it seems very soft. I actually like the one that started this thread better. No offense meant!

Again, the para that was part of this group of badges may in fact be good but, I would like to see much better PIC's from straight on. IMO, the details are very soft compared to others I've seen. It may be due to cleaning, as other badges in this group have clearly been cleaned at some point. Still, the hinge repair is sloppy and as Mark correctly observed, the dimensions on the hinge are different from other JMME para badges that have no issues.

What does the owner have to add? I assume he does not have them in hand yet?

Tim

Hello Tim,

no worries at all on this one. Have a look at the pin, hinge, plating, rivets, hook, size and weight. It passes every test. If you know your "Jmme's" then it talks. The "Type F" Jmme is a hard one to find however, so not everyone has had the chance to handle one.

Further more, my badge was brought back from Crete by Lt A.B.Kerr, 26th Battalion, 2NZEF. He rose to the rank of Major by the time the war ended. "AB" was many things but none of them was any thing to do with picking up fake German badges. He went to war and got the job done. God help anyone who crossed him, including the poor FJ whose badge this was in 1941.

If you look at Tom's "sterling" book on the subject ( pages 302 to 305 ), you will see that the "Type F" he shows also has brass rivets. In fact he says that this is a feature of the "Type F" with a wreath made by Juncker. They should have brass rivets. I presume you have the book and have read it ?

In fact it surprises me that the classifications, Tom has put the time into publishing are not being referred to here on this thread until now. Instead the image of one type of "Jmme" badge is being put up and then it is being stated that "it does not match the particular example shown" or "it has not got silver rivets"

Tom describes approx 10 different types of FJ badge marked "Jmme". Some made by "Jmme", some made by "Juncker". The badge which started this thread is not suppose to have silver rivets. It is a "Type F", they have brass rivets.

Also early Juncker badges made of nickel or brass are not always the sharpest of strikes depending on the quality, melleabilty and how hot/ cold the metal was before they struck it.

My pictures were rushed and are not the clearest. They were taken at night with a basic camera. At least however now, a veteran brought back "Jmme" by a New Zealand officer who saw the worst of the fighting on Crete in 1941 has identified the badge at the start of this thread for what it is................................."Jmme, Type F with Juncker wreath",

Chris

p.s. I agree that something might have happened to the hinge on the FJ badge which started this thread. My one is "factory" original for comparison with.

[MusRep990]

Hey Everyone!

Sorry its taken me so long to reply to y'all. I live out here in Colorado Springs where all the crazy wildfires are going on, so I was evacuated then let back then evacuated agin. But here are a few better snap shots of the pilots and paratrooper badge I got when I had a chance.

With the Pilots badge with what looks like a new loop at the bottom because of the different color coming off, its just dirt. I tried to a picture showing that. Im just to scared to clean the damn thing.

With the paratrooper badge i really do believe this to be the original hing, hopefully these photos help clear some of this up!

Thanks For All Your Opinions!

Honestly guys, I'm having a hard time with a couple of these badges.

As noted, the BSW pilot raises concerns.

- The eagle is too black looking. These have an almost blue tint to them.
- The wreath is wrong. Close, but not correct for a buntmetal badge.
- The rivets are not quite right either IMO.

Overall, the details are close and I think someone may be getting a lot better in his wares.


The Jmme & Sohn Para also raises concerns and I believe is probably a cast fake of an original.

- As noted, the hinge has been replaced and the badge appears to have been damaged to the whole top section. The hinge is obviously not correct.

- The rivets should not be brass here. They should be pinched and silver.

- The details are soft enough for me to think a cast or someone took a buffing wheel to the badge.

- Tom called out the Juncker style wreath but, look closely at the "infinity" shaped die flaw and it's not really there. So, either it's a cast that didn't capture the whole flaw or it got buffed out.


I'll add a couple of mine for comparison but, I personally would not want either of these two.


The Deumer ROAG ????


Just too many concerns on these, that it would make me take a very close look at all of these in hand with a good loop.

Tim