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**Mike Swan** · 03-06-2012, 01:07 AM

Excellent photos of two superb badges.

Early FLL PO badges easily rate with the alleged more glamorous maker-marked Junckers, GWLs etc.

Mike

**Jan Arne S** · 03-06-2012, 06:05 AM

Hi Tim !
Just EXCELLENT FLL P/O badges you show in this thread

Jan Arne

**Tim O.** · 03-06-2012, 01:48 PM

Originally posted by Thomas Durante View Post

Thanks Tim.

Based on your comparison of both examples in your hands, can you say which one you think is earlier? Is there any increase in flaws on the wreath that would lead you to believe one is earlier than the other? I have always assumed that the barrel-hinge examples were the earlier ones since they are much more uncommon that the block hinge examples. But the thicker wreath has me re-thinking that scenario at the moment. What do you think?

Tom

Hi Tom

Sorry, but I could not make a statement about this with any confidence even after a fairly long examination of both badges. Not much help I'm afraid!

**Tim O.** · 03-06-2012, 01:49 PM

Thank you to everyone for the kind comments.

**The Dragon** · 03-06-2012, 03:05 PM

Hi Tim O,

Your badges are beautiful. Your collection in general from the postings I see in other threads are fantastic.

**Thomas Durante** · 03-06-2012, 03:41 PM

Ok, thanks Tim. I have been looking at them for a while myself and can't say I see much difference at all in the quality of the strike on the wreaths. Which is interesting, because if you see some of the early FLL Para badges, there is significant flawing on the 1st pattern wreath....which is likely why they switched to the 2nd pattern. I don't see any flawing on either of your examples, which must mean they were very early or they came out of different dies than the Para wreaths. I think it is the former, since I cannot find any differences in the wreaths (other than the flawing ofcourse).

I am enjoying studying these 2 POs Tim, they are just gorgeous!

Tom

**Silver** · 03-06-2012, 04:55 PM

Hallo Tim,

two very nice pieces!

......and great photos.

I also find it very interesting to see both of these variants in comparison!

And I also thought that the Juncker set up variant are the earlier one would be......but who knows?

That's the exciting thing about our hobby......research and compare to get answers.......

Great work!!

Best regards
Thomas

**Tim O.** · 03-06-2012, 05:51 PM

Thanks again guys

**Tim O.** · 03-07-2012, 01:32 PM

Originally posted by Thomas Durante View Post

Ok, thanks Tim. I have been looking at them for a while myself and can't say I see much difference at all in the quality of the strike on the wreaths. Which is interesting, because if you see some of the early FLL Para badges, there is significant flawing on the 1st pattern wreath....which is likely why they switched to the 2nd pattern. I don't see any flawing on either of your examples, which must mean they were very early or they came out of different dies than the Para wreaths. I think it is the former, since I cannot find any differences in the wreaths (other than the flawing ofcourse).

I am enjoying studying these 2 POs Tim, they are just gorgeous!

Tom

Tom

I should remember to check your excellent book to gain insight into wreaths! Looking again at the two badges, the flaw you identify running along the top laurel leaves on FLL 1st Pattern Wreaths is clearly evident on the PO badge with thinner wreath and 'FLL-style' hinge (and also on my 'minty' FLL Pilot badge with the same set up). This flaw is entirely absent on the badge with thicker wreath and barrel hinge. Does this make the thicker wreath earlier than the thin wreath?

**Tim O.** · 03-07-2012, 01:41 PM

Tom

Photos of the wreath flaw area to compare: barrel hinge has red background. Apologies that the focus is poor but I was too lazy to take new photos - I think it is still clear enough.

Attached Files

**Thomas Durante** · 03-07-2012, 03:23 PM

Hi Tim,

Yes, I think that is confirmation that the thinner wreath, FLL hinge badge is the later example. Ofcourse, that is assuming that both types came out of the exact same die.

Now that you know what flaws to look for, I would look very closely at the earlier, thick-wreath PO and see if you see any beginning signs of these flaws. I would also look at all the veining very closely and see if you see any differences between the two wreaths. If there is any difference, then we could be looking at two different dies on these early badges!

When I first started to study the FLL Paras, I thought they were all using the same wreath die. It was only when I really started studying and comparing each leaf veining did I realize they were two different dies. The differences are very slight, but they are there. I would say that 98% of the wreath was EXACTLY the same between the 1st and 2nd patterns, with the only exception being 2 or 3 small leaf veins. Pretty remarkable to say the least, and I can only assume they had some master wreath design that they used to make the working dies from. If they had 2, so there is always a possibility they had 3 or even more!

If you look at page 207 of the Para book, I show the main differences between the 1st and 2nd pattern wreaths. Very small differences, but they are there!

Tom

p.s., thanks for your kind words on my Para book Tim. There is quite a bit of info in there, its very hard to absorb it all in one read thru! I have the same problem with Dietrich's EK1 book and Marc's flak book. I have read thru both of these many times, but each time I do I find something new that I had missed before. So now I have learned that whenever we start an interesting discussion on a certain badge or maker, I look thru each of these books to the FLL chapter or whichever and read up on all the different badges they produced. That has been a big help and I have learned alot that way.

Tom

**Silver** · 03-07-2012, 05:30 PM

Hallo Guys,

on my database all of these barell hinge versions have no flaws along the top laurel leaves......also the swastika is everytime symmetrically!

I think these two facts maybe can also close of a early production with good tools by the barell hinge type!?

Here are some pictures from barrel hinge types for comparison:

KR
Thomas

Attached Files

**Silver** · 03-07-2012, 05:31 PM

another:

Attached Files

**Silver** · 03-07-2012, 05:33 PM

last one:

Attached Files

**Tim O.** · 03-07-2012, 06:18 PM

Thanks Thomas, this is very helpful.

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Two Buntmetall FLL PO Badges for Study

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