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Billy Kramer

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    #1

    Glider Brothers

    For a long time Skipper had been trying to find a Glider Pilot’s badge to finally complete his set of Luftwaffe qualification badges. He wanted an early Juncker or BSW so it could be compared with known originals to try and get as close to “textbook” as possible. We were convinced that the SOS would be the perfect place to finally solve our quest. Near the end of the first day we had found exactly one original example and it was priced at 6K. Not exactly the success we had envisioned. Just as defeat seemed eminent, someone mentioned a zinc example on Jason Burmeister’s table. Skip and I looked at each other both thinking “Zinc, I don’t think so”. After about the third person came by and mentioned what a nice badge it was, Skip decided to take a look. He was back in about two minutes with the look of a kid on Christmas morning, and he said, “Take a look at this”. I couldn’t believe it, an unmarked zinc badge with 100% of the original finish. Better yet, it was a spot on match to my marked BSW. Anyway, here’s the result of our quest.

    <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o></o>

    Skippers zinc badge compared to an early example.



    <o></o>

    Any apparent differences are the result of the camera angle as I took the pictures.



    This piece has changed my attitude about zinc badges.



    <o></o>

    Apparently the zinc was too brittle to use rivets so the eagle was soldered directly to the wreath.





    <o></o>
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    Tags: None
    #2
    Now the Mystery

    Now for the mystery. There appears to be a name and date scratched on the reverse. I can’t begin to read the name, but the 1937 date is readily visible. But why a 1937 date on a badge that wasn’t introduced until 1940. Any ideas?



    <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o></o>

    The hinge and catch assembly

    Ignored Due To Invisibility.

    Comment

      #3
      Well they do look very similar.

      I can only say that from personal preference I would never buy a Luftwaffe flight badge were the eagle has been soldered bto the wreath and not rivited.

      I know that some people accept this as a legitimate variation, I am not one of these people. If you were trying to find a badge that was as "textbook" as possible, this would, in my opinion, not be it.

      Skip
      LOOKING FOR ALL ITEMS CONNECTED TO HERBERT SCHOB.

      Comment

        #4
        Skip and Larry, on the zinc badge does the beak look squished a little or is ti just the photos?

        Comment

          #5
          Skip, under most circumstances I'd agree with you about the lack of rivets. On almost every BSW Glider Pilot's badge I've seen the wreath is cracked where the rivets when flattened. Because the wreath on these badges is so thin I have no difficulty believing that it was better to solder the eagles on than manufacture a badge that was almost certain to break.

          Frank, because we took the photos outside, the camera angle picked up bright spot that makes the beak appear different. In fact they are identical.
          Ignored Due To Invisibility.

          Comment

            #6
            Larry

            Here is a zinc copy? Looks very similar to the zinc piece you show.
            Mine measures 42mm by 55.7mm.

            Don't take this the wrong way. I'm not saying your badge is wrong.
            I simple don't know much about these.

            Regards
            Ken
            Attached Files

            Comment

              #7
              Ken, do you have a photo of the reverse of your badge? Please keep in mind that anything I post is certainly open to debate.
              Ignored Due To Invisibility.

              Comment

                #8
                Larry

                The pictures were taken with my junk camera. I'm sorry they are
                not very clear. The similarites may shock you. This one is stamped
                L/58 near the catch. Helmut Weitz has an L/58 on his web site, for
                sale with better pictures. www.weitze.com. Maybe his pictures will
                be of interest to you. As I said, I know very little about these badges.

                All the best
                Ken
                Attached Files

                Comment

                  #9
                  Ken, the main benefit I have when discussing Skipper's badge is that I've had the opportunity to hold it and examine it in person. While the badge you presented is certainly cause for concern, it just doesn't appear to have the finish present on Skips badge. There's just something about the original finish that the copies seem to fall short on. I've heard that they now make copies with the bubbling of the finish just like originals, but I still have a good feeling about this one. One other advantage to his finding it at the SOS was that there was certainly no shortage of people to get opinions from. While I don't know everyone he showed it to, to the best of my knowledge no one had any concerns. That being said, the badge you've shown certainly has to be a wakeup call to anyone owning a BSW badge.
                  Ignored Due To Invisibility.

                  Comment

                    #10
                    Larry

                    I certainly did not mean to imply that Skipper's or Mr. Weitze's badge
                    were incorrect. I don't have enough knowledge of these. I only showed
                    pictures of my badge to point out some similarities. I hope for Skippers'
                    sake that it is an original. I'm sure he had to lay out big bucks for it.

                    Best regards
                    Ken

                    Comment

                      #11
                      Lest anyone think I've sent Snigley out to fight my battles for me, I would like to weigh in here. I do not, by any means, claim to be an authority on Luftwaffe badges. The decision to purchase the badge was based on:
                      • The source of the piece and the dealer in question
                      • The opportunity I had to 'vet' the piece with several individuals at the S-O-S, including one collector (note, not a dealer) in whom I place a great deal of trust, especially in the field of Luftwaffe badges
                      • The fact that I liked the badge once I finally bothered to take a look at it (I went the whole day on Thursday without even seeing the piece, as it was initially described as a late, zinc badge).
                      The comparison to Larry's badge - which, obviously, I believe to be an original - only served to bolster my belief that the badge I purchased was produced by BSW during the War (albeit, very late in the War!).

                      It is important, however, for me to stress at this point that all opinions and thoughts are welcome. I am certainly not one to ignore a convincing argument, - pro or con - re: any piece in my collection, and this badge is no exception.

                      Ken (and the rest of those who care to comment), thanks for your input!
                      Skip

                      Comment

                        #12
                        Dear Skipper,

                        I do not feel qualified to judge 100% about your new badge and certainly do not want to ruin the fun, so please take my input just as additional info.

                        I the earlier days of picture collecting for my files (unfortunately I was not wise enough back then to save the name of the owner or "submitter" with the file), I saved these pictures of a supposedly fake glider badge in my files. I have always been very cautious which pics to save and in which catagory and did this only when some conclusion was reached that a badge was either way when I still did not have the neccessary knowledge about a badge myself to come to this conclusion on my own.

                        So for what it is worth, it seems to be a match with your badge, except for the rivets. Having said that, when I look at YOUR badge, I also like the general look of it, especially the finish.
                        Attached Files
                        Cheers, Frank

                        Comment

                          #13
                          reverse
                          Attached Files
                          Cheers, Frank

                          Comment

                            #14
                            Hi Guys,


                            Just curious here. The oval shape under the hinge, on the zinkers, is that really a catch plate or just a risen area in the zinc?

                            KR
                            Philippe
                            Last edited by Philippe DB; 03-08-2004, 06:39 AM.

                            Comment

                              #15
                              Hello Gentlemen,



                              Nice find, I have no issues with the piece as well as the rivet issue.
                              Jason is also one of the top dealers in the country, understood that we are looking at the badge and not the dealer.

                              @ Larry, right on the mrk in reference to finish, always over looked in leiu of hardware and detail.

                              Best,
                              JD
                              What we do in life ehoes in eternity.

                              Comment

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